I never see other APs

[biggg]

I have been doing this for 200-300 hrs now. Over this time I estimate I have sat with around 1000 different players.

Out of these I have seen maybe 4-5 people I thought were counting and of them maybe 1 was playing a strong enough game that they would have a material edge, in another case the player in question wonged out before I could really verify they were an AP. In addition I sat with what I believe was an ace sequencing team.

I am usually alert for this sort of thing and don't think I have missed too many. On top of this I would say only around 5% of people play bs mostly by bringing a bs card to the casino.

My question is, is this consistent with what you guys have seen and if so, why do casinos bother with such heavy countermeasures?

[stopgambling]

i have seen a few CC , most are just cc not any good at all.but only 1 was good , i would say quite good ,better than me for sure.this person is probably a a semi pro. That's about 1/10 CC is any good. At least that's the general idea i got from the experts.

[DBJT]

Actually I believe if you're really good enough for the casinos not to catch on to the fact that you're an AP, then other counters could have a tough time being "sure" about you, too.

Just kind of makes sense, right? I mean, think about it...

If a counter can definitely, quickly, certainly I.D. another counter, then that guy's probably not gonna last very long against surveillance, is he?

Short sessions, a couple judicious cover plays, even simple "ploppy-like" banter as friendly chat between players... all that can make another card counter at your table THINK that you're NOT a counter fairly quickly, IMHO.

-DBJT

[DSchles]

"My question is, is this consistent with what you guys have seen and if so, why do casinos bother with such heavy countermeasures?"

Because they're consummate *******s with IQs of an earthworm.

Don

[moo321]

Most of the times I run into APs, it's in Vegas. I've been going to some casinos for the better part of a decade and never seen another AP. It's much less common outside of Vegas.

[wookets]

My question is...why do casinos bother with such heavy countermeasures?

The countermeasures are in place for the APs that can severely damage a casino's bottom line. If they were left unchecked, these players could easily bankrupt multiple casinos.

[ZeeBabar]

"My question is, is this consistent with what you guys have seen and if so, why do casinos bother with such heavy countermeasures?"

Because they're consummate *******s with IQs of an earthworm.

Don

That is silly. Its like if you own a store, you should not keep an eye out for shop lifters? Any business's intent is to make money and other than their employees, they do not want anyone else making a living out of them. They want you to "Gamble" and take your chances. AP's are not gamblers (just like shoplifters are not shoppers) and they have every right to prevent them.

[MidniteToker]

Its like if you own a store, you should not keep an eye out for shop lifters?

If your average loss per month to shoplifters is about $5, should you hire a few LP employees and pay them $10 an hour each?

Protection for the sake of protection is meaningless if the goal is to maximize profit. That doesn't stop idiots from doing stupid things, but it's still true.

[HowMany]

Hell, I never see anyone that knows basic strategy.

[DBJT]

Smart businesses analyze and determine precisely what their average "shrinkage" loss is, and then try to spend exactly up to that amount to prevent it, and not a dollar more. Any amount OVER that is simply another expense to plan on, a cost of doing business, exactly the same as electric bill, rent, salary, etc., and price your product accordingly for expected sales in order to make a profit.

Emotion aside, spending $10 in more anti-theft effort to save $1 of add'tl theft is just bad business... but that doesn't mean a lot of business don't do it anyway (for "moral" reasons or just because the don't know any better, or don't have good enough data to know any better).

I suspect casino management falls into this latter category...

-DBJT

P.S. Honestly, I often see ploppies who stick to about 97% of correct basic strategy, without much help... and with a little discussion I believe a pretty good chunk of those folks CAN be convinced to do the right thing on that last 3% they're not sure about! Contrary to all the usual AP-ploppy bashing that goes on, I really believe many casual players CAN do better, they want to win, they CAN understand the MATH if only they had a little help! Or, I dunno, yeah maybe I'm too optimistic about 'em... LOL

P.P.S. Oh, of course... goes without saying there's NO HELPING some IDIOTS who just wanna gamble and do wild & crazy stuff just for the sh1ts & giggles of it. Guy I saw last week split 3's against a ten with a big bet out, and nothing anyone could say to him would dissuade him, LOL. SOME people just LIKE to LOSE I guess... even IF I think a lot of plop's are not beyond hope

[blackjackomaha]

If I would not have met the AP's I know prior to playing with them, I'm sure I would have had a harder time identifying them as such.

As to your second point, financial management, ROI, etc are not necessarily the strong points for those making the decisions. Fear has gripped many casinos and they rush to implement countermeasures before analyzing the impact.

[ZeeBabar]

If your average loss per month to shoplifters is about $5, should you hire a few LP employees and pay them $10 an hour each?

Protection for the sake of protection is meaningless if the goal is to maximize profit. That doesn't stop idiots from doing stupid things, but it's still true.

But if you have no security, would there not be more shoplifters running in to your store? Obviously, they believe that the additional security is paying off.

In any case, it is their business and the last thing a store owner wants is advice from a shop lifter.

Just going by the forums, there are a lot of AP's out there.

[Three]

That is silly. Its like if you own a store, you should not keep an eye out for shop lifters? Any business's intent is to make money and other than their employees, they do not want anyone else making a living out of them. They want you to "Gamble" and take your chances. AP's are not gamblers (just like shoplifters are not shoppers) and they have every right to prevent them.

What makes the consummate ********s is that they spend $10 million a year keeping people away who are lucky to cost the casino $100K a year. A very small number of APs (probably far less than 100 in the entire country) pose a bigger threat and could be kept away from the games at a far cheaper cost. You want to keep the shoplifters out of your store but if they steal $5K a year you don't spend $250K in measures to try to stop them.