Multiple Burn Cards at the start of a new shoe......

[llama1]

My "Common Sense" is still trying to tell me that to play a shoe with 52 BURN CARDS is Financial Suicide, not just for the reason that the the penetration is effectively much less, but for the fact that I know for a fact that my Personal EV is WRONG (I know I should pretend that the first 52 Cards of the Shoe are still in the Shoe behind the cut card, but I can't....Because I can see them in the Discard Tray!).......

The fact that Online Casinos these days are burning one card between EVERY deal, suggests to me that they know full well, that every burn card that they can generate will decrease the accuracy of the EV of the Counters....Otherwise why would they do it......?

[Norm]

It does NOT decrease the accuracy of the count. It decreases the penetration. An unseen card is an unseen card. It doesn't matter whether it is in the tray, in the shoe, face down on the table, or in the dealer's pocket.

[llama1]

So if.......

There are TWO players at the table, Player A has seen all 104 cards, Player B has only seen the last 52 cards.

Player A has an accurate count of the 104 cards that he has seen.....Player B has an accurate count of the 52 cards that he has seen.......

The ONLY reason Player B is at a disadvantage to Player A is because Payer A's penetration is less than Player B's penetration......?


I still feel "Uncomfortable" with the fact that if say, the first 52 cards that have come out (And I have missed them), were ALL Ten's.................And sure enough, when I sit down at the table all the 5's start coming out (As they surely would).................Even though my penetration was very low after the next 52 cards, the fact that not one single ten has come out, my positive EV would be off the Richter Scale......I would get very excited......But surely I am wrong to get all excited, because my personal EV is much higher than the true EV (Even taking all the penetration calculations into account)......?

I know that Player B is at a massive disadvantage because the penetration is much less than Player A......

[muffdiver]

As Norm said, the accuracy of the count is the same but the "effectiveness" of it varies greatly because of the huge difference in the amount of unseen cards. The best you can do is count off the top on deeply cut games. Also be as accurate as you can on the deck estimations for converting the RC to the TC.

[ohbehave]

I still feel "Uncomfortable" with the fact that if say, the first 52 cards that have come out (And I have missed them), were ALL Ten's.................And sure enough, when I sit down at the table all the 5's start coming out (As they surely would).................Even though my penetration was very low after the next 52 cards, the fact that not one single ten has come out, my positive EV would be off the Richter Scale......I would get very excited......But surely I am wrong to get all excited, because my personal EV is much higher than the true EV (Even taking all the penetration calculations into account)......?

The issue with this line of thought is this is only 1 possibility out of the "bazillion" possibilities in that unseen deck of cards. You can't consider one possibility without considering the rest of the "bazillion" and when all the possibilities are considered you are left with "it doesn't matter" what those cards are to YOUR count. Its a simple matter of doing a simulation with the "penetration" you are interested in to see if the game is worth playing.

So, you MUST accept that it boils down to nothing more or less than decreased penetration.

[Tarzan]

Burn card on every hand? What? Not at any table I'm going to be playing at! I was in a casino some time back that burned 3 cards at the beginning of the shoe and during the dealer change every 20 mins. or so and was thinking, "Wow, what the heck is this little shenanigan?!?" First and foremost is yes by missing the first deck you have decreased your pen. If you were playing a 6D game and 1 1/2 decks were being cut off that has now become 2 1/2 decks cut off, making the game unplayable no matter what count you were using. Why would you ever sit in on a game with one deck played without a clue as to what had been played? Unless you had someone at the table to give you any heads up or at least had a rough idea of what had been played it would make no sense.

I could see doing what KJ and others have talked about watching more than one table and in your peripheral vision happen to know that the table over yonder at 10 o'clock hasn't seen much paint that's one thing. You have at the very least a "fuzzy count" and have a point to work from with an accurate count once you sit down but going blind? Yes, I would call that a bad move. Casinos are designed to kick your butt and take your money. If you are to survive you need to grab at every scrap of advantage you can get, avoid frivolous or ineffective gambling and avoiding playing against an overwhelming HA. No rational counter is going to say that playing with 2 1/2 decks cut off is a wise move or feasible... are they? I'm not sure I understand this discussion, was it to question cause and effect or to examine the feasibility of playing under these conditions?

[llama1]

The reason why I opened up this thread is that over here in the UK we have up to 50 very legitimate ONLINE Casino games (LIVE Dealer).....

They all seem to have different rules......It appears that the ones with the better rules do "Funny Things"....e.g. Burn 6 or even 10 cards at the start....Another one burns one card after EVERY hand......

In trying to evaluate which game to play, I was trying to work out if I should be downgrading the Online Casinos that do Multiple Burn card procedure at the Start/During the play......

[seriousplayer]

Thank You for your quick reply......

To me, it just seems so bizarre that I can sit down at a table and start counting from card 53, knowing full well, that my count is "Wrong"......If after another 52 Cards the count is a massive plus, I start betting big.....However, I look around the table and other, truly professional counters are NOT betting at all because, to them, the count is negative, based on the 104 cards that they have seen......

I am playing BIG, they are not playing at all........

Surely they know more than me, seeing that they have seen 104 cards to my 52.......Can it really be correct for me to think that my count is accurate......?

I just cannot convince myself that I can jump into a game half way and start counting and expect my count to be accurate....?

If it was accurate, why are not the players who have seen all 104 cards not playing......?

For llama:

Do you know that for large populations of average blackjack players who aren't keeping track of the cards the burn cards don't have any effect on them. It is because they are playing at a disadvantage no matter what. The casino count could offer games with advantage off the top and it don't have any effects on average blackjack players at all. One they don't play prefect basic strategy and second they don't keep track of the count to gain an advantage. As you already know for professional card counters burn cards it is equal to moving the cut card up by the number of cards burned. If the casino burn like six cards the effect on card counters are insignificant this because the burn cards only have effect on the penetration and not the running count. For example let suppose you are playing a six deck blackjack game with deck cut off 52 cards behind the cut card and the dealer burn six cards this move the cut card to 58. It is the same for 52 cards being burned. If one deck is cut off then move the cut card to 104 and you have the penetration of 60% which is not a good game to play. It does not have effective on the accuracy of the count before those card that has been played or burn is not seen. However, for places like Atlantic City the burn card are shown before taken out of play. In that case if you don't count the burn card it might have a negative effect on accuracy but if the cards are not shown then you don't have the information. You don't want to play if a deck is already played out or burned because it affects the penetration. For that being said don't get confused that casino burn cards for countermeasures. It is not!! The main intention for casino burning cards is to prevent the advance techniques like card steering of the cards burned. Also to prevent cheaters for marking cards.

[llama1]

Thanks for the info "Seriousplayer"......

Just to give an example of one of my dilemmas......

Casino A burns one card EVERY hand......Casino B does NOT burn any cards......

So Common Sense is telling me that, in isolation, I should be choosing Casino B, based on the higher penetration count I will get with Casino B.

However, Casino B is NDAS, whereas Casino A is DAS......

So what everyone is saying is that my evaluation procedure in determining which Casino to play should SOLELY be based on the differing penetration values that I assign to each Casino in conjunction with NDAS/DAS and NOT any "Emotional" feelings that I get in thinking that Casino A is messing up the accuracy of my EV when they burn a card at the start of EVERY hand......?

[seriousplayer]

Thanks for the info "Seriousplayer"......

Just to give an example of one of my dilemmas......

Casino A burns one card EVERY hand......Casino B does NOT burn any cards......

So Common Sense is telling me that, in isolation, I should be choosing Casino B, based on the higher penetration count I will get with Casino B.

However, Casino B is NDAS, whereas Casino A is DAS......

So what everyone is saying is that my evaluation procedure in determining which Casino to play should SOLELY be based on the differing penetration values that I assign to each Casino in conjunction with NDAS/DAS and NOT any "Emotional" feelings that I get in thinking that Casino A is messing up the accuracy of my EV when they burn a card at the start of EVERY hand......?

I don't tell which casino players should or should not play because it is your money. You play whatever h*ll you want. Yes, I will choose to play in casino with deeper penetration because that is what affects card counting the most. Penetration is what matter the most. For example, like the two casino you mention. Take casino A for example, if casino A deals to half of deck and it burn a card after every hand estimating about 50 hands heads up that will be 50 cards burn plus the hand deck cut off leaving a penetration of 75 cards which is a playable game with favorable rules.

[Three]

I still feel "Uncomfortable" with the fact that if say, the first 52 cards that have come out (And I have missed them), were ALL Ten's...

You should feel the same way about the cards behind the cut card. Maybe they are mostly tens and aces. There is no difference.