Multiple Burn Cards at the start of a new shoe......

**llama1** · 10-31-2013, 09:01 AM

I am sure this question has been asked many times in the past, but I cannot find a definitive answer anywhere, so I will try here......

Basically, there are many online Live Dealer Casinos these days, that think that they can combat all the counters by burning anything up to SIX cards at the start of the shoe.....

I have seen a number of forum posts, in the past, that state that the burn cards, because they are not seen, have no effect on the count because you can "Pretend" that they are cards that are still in the Shoe behind the Cut Card and therefore the Counter has not been disadvantaged by this procedure.......

Surely this is NOT the case......?

If this really was the case, then a Counter could come in after one deck, having missed the first 52 cards, and start counting, claiming that the cards that he has not seen, he can pretend that they are cards that are still in the Shoe behind the cut card......

Surely a Counter thinking along those lines is Naive and that there is a massive disadvantage generated for the Counter when so many cards are burnt at the start of a shoe......?

**Norm** · 10-31-2013, 09:09 AM

Both examples are true, but must be taken into account when determining real penetration and calculating true counts.

**llama1** · 10-31-2013, 09:22 AM

Thank You for your quick reply......

To me, it just seems so bizarre that I can sit down at a table and start counting from card 53, knowing full well, that my count is "Wrong"......If after another 52 Cards the count is a massive plus, I start betting big.....However, I look around the table and other, truly professional counters are NOT betting at all because, to them, the count is negative, based on the 104 cards that they have seen......

I am playing BIG, they are not playing at all........

Surely they know more than me, seeing that they have seen 104 cards to my 52.......Can it really be correct for me to think that my count is accurate......?

I just cannot convince myself that I can jump into a game half way and start counting and expect my count to be accurate....?

If it was accurate, why are not the players who have seen all 104 cards not playing......?

**seriousplayer** · 11-01-2013, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by llama1

Thank You for your quick reply......

To me, it just seems so bizarre that I can sit down at a table and start counting from card 53, knowing full well, that my count is "Wrong"......If after another 52 Cards the count is a massive plus, I start betting big.....However, I look around the table and other, truly professional counters are NOT betting at all because, to them, the count is negative, based on the 104 cards that they have seen......

I am playing BIG, they are not playing at all........

Surely they know more than me, seeing that they have seen 104 cards to my 52.......Can it really be correct for me to think that my count is accurate......?

I just cannot convince myself that I can jump into a game half way and start counting and expect my count to be accurate....?

If it was accurate, why are not the players who have seen all 104 cards not playing......?

For llama:

Do you know that for large populations of average blackjack players who aren't keeping track of the cards the burn cards don't have any effect on them. It is because they are playing at a disadvantage no matter what. The casino count could offer games with advantage off the top and it don't have any effects on average blackjack players at all. One they don't play prefect basic strategy and second they don't keep track of the count to gain an advantage. As you already know for professional card counters burn cards it is equal to moving the cut card up by the number of cards burned. If the casino burn like six cards the effect on card counters are insignificant this because the burn cards only have effect on the penetration and not the running count. For example let suppose you are playing a six deck blackjack game with deck cut off 52 cards behind the cut card and the dealer burn six cards this move the cut card to 58. It is the same for 52 cards being burned. If one deck is cut off then move the cut card to 104 and you have the penetration of 60% which is not a good game to play. It does not have effective on the accuracy of the count before those card that has been played or burn is not seen. However, for places like Atlantic City the burn card are shown before taken out of play. In that case if you don't count the burn card it might have a negative effect on accuracy but if the cards are not shown then you don't have the information. You don't want to play if a deck is already played out or burned because it affects the penetration. For that being said don't get confused that casino burn cards for countermeasures. It is not!! The main intention for casino burning cards is to prevent the advance techniques like card steering of the cards burned. Also to prevent cheaters for marking cards.

**llama1** · 11-01-2013, 03:57 PM

Thanks for the info "Seriousplayer"......

Just to give an example of one of my dilemmas......

Casino A burns one card EVERY hand......Casino B does NOT burn any cards......

So Common Sense is telling me that, in isolation, I should be choosing Casino B, based on the higher penetration count I will get with Casino B.

However, Casino B is NDAS, whereas Casino A is DAS......

So what everyone is saying is that my evaluation procedure in determining which Casino to play should SOLELY be based on the differing penetration values that I assign to each Casino in conjunction with NDAS/DAS and NOT any "Emotional" feelings that I get in thinking that Casino A is messing up the accuracy of my EV when they burn a card at the start of EVERY hand......?

**seriousplayer** · 11-01-2013, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by llama1

Thanks for the info "Seriousplayer"......

Just to give an example of one of my dilemmas......

Casino A burns one card EVERY hand......Casino B does NOT burn any cards......

So Common Sense is telling me that, in isolation, I should be choosing Casino B, based on the higher penetration count I will get with Casino B.

However, Casino B is NDAS, whereas Casino A is DAS......

So what everyone is saying is that my evaluation procedure in determining which Casino to play should SOLELY be based on the differing penetration values that I assign to each Casino in conjunction with NDAS/DAS and NOT any "Emotional" feelings that I get in thinking that Casino A is messing up the accuracy of my EV when they burn a card at the start of EVERY hand......?

I don't tell which casino players should or should not play because it is your money. You play whatever h*ll you want. Yes, I will choose to play in casino with deeper penetration because that is what affects card counting the most. Penetration is what matter the most. For example, like the two casino you mention. Take casino A for example, if casino A deals to half of deck and it burn a card after every hand estimating about 50 hands heads up that will be 50 cards burn plus the hand deck cut off leaving a penetration of 75 cards which is a playable game with favorable rules.

**Rudy** · 10-31-2013, 09:18 AM

You can check this:

http://www.blackjackincolor.com/cardcountingextra2.htm

**Norm** · 10-31-2013, 09:41 AM

Your count is not "wrong". It is accurate as far as the information that you have. But, those that saw more cards have more information. Just as a hole-carder would have even more information than they. That doesn't make those that started counting at the start "wrong" because they are not hole-carding.

Obviously, starting after a full-deck has been dealt without knowledge of that deck puts you at a relative disadvantage.

**Hsiaodi** · 10-31-2013, 09:55 AM

You can only work with the information that you're given. In this case your own count. It has no relevance someone else is betting or not. Unless they tell you what their count is, it shouldn't enter your decision.

On the other hand, if you know they are indeed competent counters and they are not betting, why would you? Also they may have other information that they will not share with you or anyone else.

**Norm** · 10-31-2013, 10:15 AM

Well put.

**llama1** · 10-31-2013, 12:19 PM

ok, I agree with the idea that my count is as good as it will get, with the information that I have......But what I would like to know that long term, is this a winning strategy on the basis that over the long term my under estimating and over estimating of my position will even itself out....OR is my count so "Random" that I would be a fool to play in a situation where I have not seen the first 52 cards of a shoe......?

**Three** · 10-31-2013, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by llama1

I would be a fool to play in a situation where I have not seen the first 52 cards of a shoe......?

If you didn't see the first 52 cards it is the same as playing with one deck lss penetration. The important thing is you must remember that the cards in the discard tray are one deck more than the divisor for the true count. If not ll your TC's and index plays will be off. You must view the discard tray as only having the cards you have seen in it. The unseen cards must be viewed as additional cards behind the cut card. You get to the last deck in the shoe and divide by 1 instead of 1+1=2 (number of decks left to be dealt plus the number of unseen decks in the discard tray) you will really be hurting yourself.

**bigplayer** · 10-31-2013, 01:35 PM

if your count is "wrong" then it's always wrong, even off the top of a fresh shoe because you will never know how much of the count you've got is behind the cut card. For example, a shoe with 5 decks dealt out of 6 starting brand new off the top your starting count is 0 for a typical system, but there might be 10 extra big cards behind the cut card, in which case your count was off by 10 before you even started playing.

The point is, you can only go by the info that you have. Unseen cards are Unseen cards. The definition of "True Count" is Running Count/Decks Unseen not Running Count/Decks behind the cut card.