It bothers me...

**Rainmaker** · 09-29-2013, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Pacman

...I dont know why, but watchin people play hands wrong, and do stupid things jus irritates me. My hand aside, just observing the sheer ignorants of these fools is near unbearable. Riding the full kelly coaster was less stressful...And god forbid yu try to help!!~Pac

It bothers me too. Know why? Because I put in time and effort to play very well. I do not mind an average player who plays the same hands as everyone else incorrectly. But the terrible player...he is showing a complete lack of respect for an art form that I practice well. It is desecration. That's why. On top of that, it is usally a kid. When I am older, maybe I will have a kid that age. If my kid was throwing my money away that irresponsibly, he would be a disappointment. If he was old, which occurs sometimes, his life would be a failure--because he obviously has learned nothing by that age.

**Kat** · 09-30-2013, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by Rainmaker

It bothers me too. Know why? Because I put in time and effort to play very well. I do not mind an average player who plays the same hands as everyone else incorrectly. But the terrible player...he is showing a complete lack of respect for an art form that I practice well. It is desecration. That's why. On top of that, it is usally a kid. When I am older, maybe I will have a kid that age. If my kid was throwing my money away that irresponsibly, he would be a disappointment. If he was old, which occurs sometimes, his life would be a failure--because he obviously has learned nothing by that age.

This is a kind of Fundamentalist Superiority, of the kind that Pat Robertson exudes; where someone learned in one discipline can clearly see the error in others. What about someone throwing money away on a drug addiction; or alcohol or sex? How about the dude who lost his life savings on the stock market? Or on Madoff's Ponzi scheme? All of these people, like the ploppy, should have known better. But we are only human and each reserves - and deserves - the right to evolve or not evolve as he sees fit. We can observe and choose to bite our tongue and be in allowance of other peoples' journey. That being said, now where were we? Oh yeah, that idiot kid ploppy throwing more of his money away... Hmmmm

**DBJT** · 09-30-2013, 06:53 AM

I had a discussion related to this with a very good friend of mine the other day. He's a highly intelligent guy, very successful, quite wealthy, but still basically a ploppy when he plays blackjack. He knows I can count cards and we actually play together from time to time. It drives me crazy that I know he COULD learn to count pretty quickly IF ONLY he just wanted to TRY (I tell him all the time that I'll train him!) but he still just doesn't want to bother to do it. This is the case even though he *admits* that he usually does better when he plays with me (when I coach him on BS at least, or let him know when to raise his bet) versus when he plays alone, without my help.

His reason, which I don't agree with of course but which I still DO kind of understand, is that for him... blackjack is JUST a GAME. Casinos are just for FUN. It is FUN for him to take a chance and actually beat the odds once in a while even though he knows, mathematically, that it won't happen most of the time.

This idea of going up against something inevitable and possibly even "playing wrong" and usually losing but still "just sometimes" getting away with it and WINNING, despite the odds, is IMHO maybe somehow very fundamentally related to a deep-seated human psychological wish to cheat death... or something like that. LOL

The idea that doing this could really be "fun" is totally alien to those of us with a more mathematical slant, the real AP vs the average blind-gambler who is in it just for an hour or two of "fun" a couple times a year at the casino... because for ME, personally, the FUN in playing this game at all is really ONLY in KNOWING that I have the edge long-term over these huge, evil casinos. Taking their money away?? Yeah, THAT is FUN!!!

But y'know... that doesn't make these other people's perspective or choice of how & where to find their FUN, like my friend's point of view, any less valid. They're not "wrong", it's just "different". To each his own.

IMHO most AP's are far too disparaging of ploppies. Yeah sure a lot of them are genuine idiots, and casinos as a whole are hardly bastions of upper-scale intelligence of the citizenry... quite the contrary. Most of the populace you see in the casinos on a daily basis has -- sadly -- probably no business being there at all (gambling away a welfare check or whatever).

But unfortunately we AP's do need 'em to be there, losing and losing, trying to sub-consciously cheat death or whatever, in order for us to have the game that WE have. It's an unfortunate fact of life: if all the plop's disappeared tomorrow and all the seats were then taken up with skilled players, the casinos would shut down all the games in a millisecond, and replace 'em with slot machines.

So, y'know guys... let's try to be NICE to these plops, OK?

Maybe gently try and help 'em, sometimes. Suggest they really should double that eleven or split those 8's and don't get too mad when they shout at you for "taking the dealer's bust card" by hitting your 12 vs 3... or, y'know, just leave 'em alone, play your own game and let them have their "fun" playing theirs (however "wrong" it may be).

-DBJT

**Tarzan** · 09-30-2013, 10:06 AM

They are looking at it differently than you. I've enjoyed observing John Q. Gambler over the years in the casinos and have questioned the mentality myself. I've even read some of Flash's psychology books on a gambler's mentality, wanting to know "What exactly is going on in there?" The amateur, average gamblers mentality ranges from enjoyment, fun and blowing off a little stream infrequently to problematic compulsive gamblers whose life is in a shamble over financial strains of excessive or ineffective gambling. Some serious Darwinism goes on in a casino and it never ceases to amaze me with all the things I have seen over the years. I've seen some incredible amounts of money won and lost over the years in general by people, I've seen people do insane and ridiculously negative EV gambling with no real clue as to what they were doing with the casinos making money hand over fist from it all but what the heck they are having fun, right?

All that "fun" goes right out the window as soon as you are attempting to be profitable. It was "fun" when I first starting romping around casinos in Vegas in my early 20's... for maybe the first week or so? Hahahaha I had never gambled before and starting learning how to play blackjack specifically because of it's potential profitability. After that and forever more it became more about planning, financial goals, achieving objectives and devoting myself to becoming a better player. It is then a difficult goal and objective rather than an amusing pastime. It's a lot of time, trouble, investment of resources, study and intensive training to have any real chance of success at a vocation that a very few individuals ever reach any real pinnacle of success at in the long haul.

A recreational gambler thinks differently. They are often even blissfully ignorant of any odds, overwhelming or otherwise against them, relying purely on "LadyLuck" to come through, that whole "Sacred flow of the cards" thing, etc. and they derive enjoyment from gambling itself. A problematic compulsive gambler is a situation where enjoyment of partaking in the act of gambling itself takes priority over any financial consequences no matter how detrimental they may be. Piles of money are won and lost but ultimately the casinos always have the upper hand on the vast majority of anyone strolling into their place and the recreational gambler mentality comes from a broad cross-section of society. I've watched their action all these years and I never cease to be amused at the crazy things I have witnessed in the casino environment.

**DBJT** · 09-30-2013, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Tarzan

...All that "fun" goes right out the window as soon as you are attempting to be profitable.

Well, kind of. I understand your meaning, and I agree... but only to a point.

Basically AP's are still "playing a game", but it's definitely not the same game the casino is offering to the ploppies. OUR game is way more complex. And it's mostly a game of our own making, our own definition, and one contrary to the casino's wishes, in fact (which, heh, actually could mean it's a more FUN game, in and of itself, for that reason alone! Chess is a naturally "more fun" game than Checkers to a skilled player...)

We therefore don't derive the same "fun" as they do, not in the same way or on the same level, even as we're all sitting side by side at the same table. And OH YEAH MAN absolutely it's true that beating the basic game IS a lot of WORK, no doubt about it. But the flashing lights and ringing bells hold absolutely no sway over us anymore, most likely (BTW if you still "feel" the "attraction" of the "casino environment" as a card counter, watch out, Charlie... that's a big Red Flag warning sign and you're probably still vulnerable to being "just a gambler")

But, y'know, all this considered... it STILL should be "fun" doing this "work"... at least sometimes, in theory.

Otherwise, really, why do it? Go find something else to do instead, something that you really do enjoy.

Personally, one reason why I'm trying to branch out into some stuff beyond simple solo Advantage Play work, is exactly this reason. Beating the casinos alone just isn't that much "fun" for me anymore, after I've been doing it for 20+ years. Instead, I'm hoping it will be more fun to help others cross over from ploppy to AP, develop new team attack methods, or other related stuff.

But, if it's all become totally NOT FUN some day? Time to quit and go find something else to do -- life is short

-DBJT

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 09-30-2013, 11:48 AM

I was playing at the Borgata High Limit Room, sandwiched between a slightly inebriated

movie producer playing good basic strategy betting randomly $1,000 to $3,000 per hand,

and an older asian gentleman who was betting 1/2 of that, while playing every hand incorrectly.

Yes. Hyperbole absent. He hit stiffs against stiffs and stood on stiffs against strong cards, etc.

The amazing thing was that he couldn't stop laughing at himself as he burned through SIX figures.

**Member Name Hidden** · 09-30-2013, 12:04 PM

imagine how much more money this place would make if they didn't cut 2.0 off their shoes.

**Pacman** · 09-30-2013, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by DBJT

Hiya Pac,

I understand your meaning, of course, but just in case ya didn't know, the expression "Jack Of All Trades" was originally full version: Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None.

-DBJT

I'd still consider my self as such. Except more like jack of all trades, master of many

Besides, it'd be more useful to know many things, instead of perfect one thing. In my case, i try to perfect many things. Makes life more fun

Also gives me an advantage over those with only one skill in life.

~Pac

**Rainmaker** · 10-01-2013, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Kat

This is a kind of Fundamentalist Superiority, of the kind that Pat Robertson exudes; where someone learned in one discipline can clearly see the error in others. What about someone throwing money away on a drug addiction; or alcohol or sex? How about the dude who lost his life savings on the stock market? Or on Madoff's Ponzi scheme? All of these people, like the ploppy, should have known better. But we are only human and each reserves - and deserves - the right to evolve or not evolve as he sees fit. We can observe and choose to bite our tongue and be in allowance of other peoples' journey. That being said, now where were we? Oh yeah, that idiot kid ploppy throwing more of his money away... Hmmmm

Hitting a 16 when the dealer shows 6 is comparable to losing your life savings to Madoff? I never really knew much about Madoff, just the buzz I heard. But I gave him more credit than that. I figured his scheme was fairly complicated and innocent looking. If investing with him was as moronic as playing that terribly, well then yeah they had it coming. A bare essentials question you usually ask before playing a game is...how do I play? Most people do that, and most people are not very good their first time. But some do not do that; by the time they should be average, they are very terrible. You seem to be defending people throwing away money on addiction. That's what casinos want. Society generally thinks addicts are bad, as opposed to calling it a journey. A kid's money...it's his parents money, I basically think what if it were my kid how poorly it would reflect on me. I don't know man, I don't care if you defend indefensible positions. I was just saying to the poster why I feel bothered too.