The count debate

[KJ]

I obviously do not know who sent you the pm.

That's not the issue, 8675309. The issue is that there is misrepresentations that newer players and members are believing, to their detriment, and I do have a problem with that.

[stopgambling]

I really hope to just win some money . I do not know how forum works and the debates that comes with it . I am very limited in abilities in many areas.It worrys me to be some kind of example. I should read more than try to post as I am not qualify in the knowledge in bj or have the proper English skill to post without a whole bunch of grammatical errors and misuse of vocabularies.

[mofungoo]

It is important to realize that playing one's chosen count perfectly is the most important factor in winning at blackjack. Someone who plays a level 2 system and makes just 1 error per hour would be better off playing a simpler count perfectly. All legitimate counts work, and getting the money is what we're all about.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Experienced ? Based upon what reckoning ? What they have posted ?

There are some peeps here whose veracity is dubious at best.

[George C]

If I was starting out today, it would be HiLo or KO and breaking that down even further, try Norm's REKO. When comfortable with that go to Norm's REKO-F. Game conditions are so very important but what trumps all is seeking out EV opportunities that produce much higher profits than blackjack. There are still opportunities out there and there are some knowledgeable people on this site that have G2 on really profitable plays. Get to know these folks. Having said that here are some systems that I've used in the past.
HiLo
KO
HiOpt2
Wong's Halves but doubled the value
Zen
My UBZ2 for 2D
RPC
Olsen's TruCount (What the hell was I thinking)
My 2 favs and the ones I used the longest were the Bish's Zen and The Revere Point Count.

[22 Dreams]

Wow George, that's a lot of counts.

I started with REKO-F and switched to Zen. If new players decide to go level 2, they need to practice at fast speeds on CVBJ imo. I played some shoe games in the Midwest recently with phenomenally fast dealers. If I hadn’t practiced at insane speeds, which I was doing for fun (because I’m sick!), I couldn’t have kept up and looked natural.

[HowMany]

Experienced ? Based upon what reckoning ? What they have posted ?

There are some peeps here whose veracity is dubious at best.

If KJ grades them as "experienced", that's good enough for me.

I'd feel the same way if you referred to someone as "experienced".

I wouldn't question either one of you guys.

[bjarg]

This is a debate that will never end.
Ive already made it very clear in a recent thread Im with KJ on this one, but discussing which count is more effective without going deeper into other aspects of the game and the person thats playing it is pointless.
Its like trying to discuss what skis are better. Would you recommend the exact same skis to a person thats doing freestyle and to another one thats racing? Of course not!
However I find this discussions to be very productive and a great opportunity to see interesting contributions from experienced and knowleadgeable players, so if it were up to me Id keep them coming.
At the very least is an escape from the "whats the index for 16vT" threads, which are becoming more and more common by the hour.

[Pacman]

Im still new to these techniques, but George is right. Card Counting is becoming more and more work, for less and less gain due to casinos thinking our meager 1-2% edge is truly crippling to the STAGGERING number of ploppies who rain money on there heads. That said, i prefer to use a more difficult level 2 count because i MAINLY play pitch games. Though lately have been dabbling into 6deck games as well.
In the end though, card counting will become obsolete, and only those who were able to move past these "which count is better" questions will be able to continue to profit. I can say this thou; Ill be one of them . I damn sure will work hard to survive the coming era of CSM and relentless heat bearing, sweaty pit bosses and casino personnel alike. When you passionate about something, what matters most is the amount of effort your willing to put forth.

~Pac

[Ouchez]

KJ, I am up for the Poll But Norm should set it up.

I hate to get into these debates, and was staying away until your new thread. My experience is Hi-Lo, always has been, and I have been very happy with it. It has been said that Hi-Lo performs poorly with DD, but a number of years ago I experimented with what I tagged Hi-Lo-Lo for DD, a simple side of aces for betting and a few indice plays, and I found it was dynamite,,,so with me, Hi-Lo and Hi-Lo-Lo, rocked, and I did not have to learn a 6D count and a totally new DD count.

One thing that bothers me is how these arguments turn into insults and hurt feelings more than anything else.

Good work KJ.

Best,
Ouchez

[Gramazeka]

Multi parameter systems this is Stone Age for counters.

[bigplayer]

It's all about the EV. Variance (flux) is very predictable in both the short and long run and does not change a heck of a lot with count systems. EV is very unpredictable and takes a long time to settle out to a predicted amount. Strong two level systems will win (based on all the simulations I've seen and done) anywhere from 5% to 10% more on shoes, 8% to 12% on double deck, and 15% to 20% on single deck. So, if you play shoes with High-Low and were a very small loser over the last year, you'd probably would have been a very small winner using a more powerful system...that's assuming that you can play with the same level of accuracy and that the more difficult system does not force you to play 10% fewer hours due to increased fatigue. If you don't play a lot of pitch games or don't use a tight spread approach that relies more heavily on play deviations then I agree with Stanford Wong that "any system that compares high cards to low cards" will get the money and that your time might be better served looking either for better games with bigger edges or more creative ways to get bigger betting spreads on the table when the count calls for it.

[biggg]

Any decent count will get the money. Cover, finding good dealers and pen, act, etc are far far more important. Hi lo is incredibly easy and gets almost all the money. Now if you are one of those guys who can keep a level two side count with aces and not give up anything then it's certainly worth learning since 10-20% more profit is certainly worthwhile.

I know someone who plays mostly shoe but will sometimes play pitch. He only knows hi lo but is completely capable of learning hi opt ii or some other system. However he can keep the hi lo count while drunk and acting like a total idiot with the dealers buying his act. As a result he gets away with shoe style bet spreads in a pitch game with minimal heat and can play long sessions. Any sim will tell you the SCORE for him is better in this type of situation.