Hitting 12 v 4, does it bring heat?

[biggg]

I think these plays make you look terrible, unless someone that "knows" is watching, and you are screwed then anyway because your bet variation will give you away. The dealer / floor reaction has always been to almost feel bad for me if I hit here since it's such a "crazy" play.

[stopgambling]

We should be much more concern with ETIS than the pit. The pit is the front line ,but some work(camo ,acts) still needs to be done toward the pit .

[hitthat16]

Where I play i see ploppies hit their stiffs to low dealer up cards all the time, so I don't worry about it at all. If the index says to hit, I hit.

[Dan Gordon]

I would much doubt that this play (hitting a 12 against a 4) will bring any kind of 'heat.' If you are a counter (and I assume you are), a negative count is needed to hit this hand (except if you are playing single deck and your hand is a 10 and a 2), which means you have a small, probably your smallest, bet out. Other players might call you stupid (though a decent percent of earnee--losing--players DO hit this hand), but the pit could care less--unless you are ALREADY UNDER SERIOUS OBSERVATION--about you doing this.

In a later part of the thread hitting a soft 18 against a 9 or ten is mentioned. I feel, disagreeing with DSCHLES, a true expert of the game, that making this play WILL POSSIBLY BRING some attention since most players DO NOT HIT THIS HAND. Most intelligent pit people see hitting this hand as a 'soft tell' that the player MIGHT be a blackjack earner (potential winner). By itself, this play will NOT get you the 'tap on the shoulder' but could get you some observation for at least a few hands.

However, as I recall, you BETTER MAKE THIS CORRECT PLAY since the penalty for mis-playing it is about 10% on the hand. I don't remember the exact 'penalty' on misplaying the 12 versus the 4 (when NOT hitting it when the count tells you to do so), but I believe it is FAR less than the penalty for mis-playing the soft 18 vs 9 hand. And, as just stated, in the long-run, it is even less in terms of actual dollars since the times you'd be making this mistake would be when you had small bets out on the table.

And for sure, especially if you 'mess up the hands of other players' (a blackjack myth as I am sure you all know), you WILL hear comments from other players about 'how stupid you are.'

BTW a sure-fire way to shut up other players...."I'll let you tell me how to play my hands, if you are willing to put up the money on them!" A somewhat less effective way to shut up other players when you make 'against the book'--AKA Basic Strategy--plays like the hit 12 vs 4 hand is to say, "The people who 'wrote the book' never BET THEIR OWN MONEY ON WHAT THEY TELL YOU TO DO!" Both statements worked well for me in my long earning career playing blackjack (ended in mid-2009 when I became forever semi-disabled with a diabetic foot ulcer). I used the second one more since it shows humor which causes fewer problems to happen and less long-range attention to be given you.

[moo321]

It will bring heat from ploppies. In many years in this business, I cannot think of a single time that the way that I played my hand brought a backoff. It's a complete myth.

[Dizzy]

Well I pulled the trigger last night and hit my 12 v 6 at a -1 true count, despite the dealer asking me many times "are you sure, are you SURE?". I pulled a 10 and busted. Everyone else stood on their hands and then the dealer drew a 5 for total of 21.

I've never been called so many names at the table. You guys weren't kidding about the ploppie heat. Half the table left immediately after. It was hilarious.

[KJ]

It will bring heat from ploppies. In many years in this business, I cannot think of a single time that the way that I played my hand brought a backoff. It's a complete myth.

I think your wording is a little tricky here, moo. I strongly agree that the way you play a hand is rarely the 'deciding factor' of a back off. Bet spread is almost always the deciding factor although lifetime win can sometimes be the deciding factor, especially for higher limit guys. For this reason, I think many players give more weight to cover plays than they deserve. Most pit folks have little idea of index plays beyond a select few (if that).

But, I have had a couple pit friend tell me that, those select few plays, 16 vs X, insurance, splitting 10's, can be a factor in initiating the process of taking a closer look at someone and the evaluation process. But certainly 12 vs 4 isn't among those plays.

Mr Gordon: good to have your input. I hope this indicates you will be participating a little more on the blackjack side here. I would love to hear more about your experiences and career, now that you are semi-retired.

Norm: might I even suggest the possibility of a guest chat if Mr Gordon is up to it?

[stopgambling]

How about A/7 vs 9,10,A ? Insurance stiff is also a concern for me?

[ZenMaster_Flash]

A7 vs ACE can be stood upon as the Index for standing is ordinarily +1 or +2

BUT for the other two plays, the cost is too high to stand as a "cover play."

[stopgambling]

True A/7 Vs 10 is about 3.7% ,and A/7 vs 9 about 9 %,A/7 vs A in h17 is about 5.5%.I assume you are talking about s17 game from your previous post as you do not like to play h17 bj game.

[moo321]

I think your wording is a little tricky here, moo. I strongly agree that the way you play a hand is rarely the 'deciding factor' of a back off. Bet spread is almost always the deciding factor although lifetime win can sometimes be the deciding factor, especially for higher limit guys. For this reason, I think many players give more weight to cover plays than they deserve. Most pit folks have little idea of index plays beyond a select few (if that).

But, I have had a couple pit friend tell me that, those select few plays, 16 vs X, insurance, splitting 10's, can be a factor in initiating the process of taking a closer look at someone and the evaluation process. But certainly 12 vs 4 isn't among those plays.

Mr Gordon: good to have your input. I hope this indicates you will be participating a little more on the blackjack side here. I would love to hear more about your experiences and career, now that you are semi-retired.

Norm: might I even suggest the possibility of a guest chat if Mr Gordon is up to it?

Is it possible that a sharp boss might tag you based on how you play hands? Sure. But a boss that's smart enough to know the close index plays is definitely going to tag you quicker from your bet spread.

And all of this begs the question: why are you playing against a smart boss in the first place?

[Bank builder]

Well I pulled the trigger last night and hit my 12 v 6 at a -1 true count, despite the dealer asking me many times "are you sure, are you SURE?". I pulled a 10 and busted. Everyone else stood on their hands and then the dealer drew a 5 for total of 21.

I've never been called so many names at the table. You guys weren't kidding about the ploppie heat. Half the table left immediately after. It was hilarious.

Concerning others getting upset at the play of players I ask why? The cards are shuffled not setup. Will the dealer bust more based on the actions of other players. I can see maybe a counter will not like the tens wasted on stupid hits but random players think it affects the outcome. I see the cards as shuffled and a play will help or hurt equally in the long run. But it's unpredictable at current time it's being played.

[Three]

They say you took the dealer's bust card. The truth is you took a T and it is either the card that busts the dealer or makes his hand. It depends on the hole card.