Buying "surrender hands" from other players

[Scavenger Squirrel]

Thanks again for everyone's input on here.
Well guess what happened tonight, so I stroll into my main local casino, and they are now using automatic card shuffling machines.

But it wont really effect me too much, becuase I never really had the skills or training to count cards in the first place. Alot having to do with the fact, that I just learned how counting cards works, last week.

I'm still like a newborn about all this advanced style playing. I basically play $5 flat bets all the time, and strictly play by the book (basic strategy). But I have been playing basic strategy for nearly 10 yrs, and the 10 yrs before that was not basic strategy. I also enjoy shoulder surfing and watching others play at the table.

Basically I play for entertainment, may have a drink every now and then, and socialize here and there, but thats all really.
But most importantly if I can acquire an edge, requiring little to no effort,then I will be interested. So basically I just play for fun and hope to get lucky. I typically buy in for $40, and normally after 30 mins of play, I call it a night, and usually +/-$20 on the night.

But as far as buying potentially other people's surrender cards, I guess it wont make any serious difference to me, since I wasnt counting in the first place. I know I will still get some decent +EV still, even if I dont count. Doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize blindly buying (half cost) a hard 13 vs 10, will win you money in the long run.

Tonight while I was observing a table in action, I seen a local, make one of the worst moves in my entire life of watching blackjack games. For what it's worth, he was all alone at the table, just him and the dealer.

This guy gets a pair of 10's (20) vs dealer 10, yet suprisingly this moron splits his hand!!!
He then hits on 1st split, gets a 9, so he is at 19 and stands, then the other hand she gives him a 5, now he's at 15, and then hits and gets a 9 and busts (24), so now finally she flips her card and bingo has 20!!!! So he now ends up going from a push on his original 20 to now losing not once, but twice on that hand, for combining greed and stupidity together.
I mean can there be anymore of a dumber move then this!

[stopgambling]

Don't ask!!!!! Staying at 6 ,A/5 LOL !!!!!

[21gunsalute]

Hmmmm, let me see if I read you right- for a proposition that is far less than 50% win proposition - I buy your bet at half it's face value, lose that value if the bet loses, then if I win the hand winning an amount equal to the face value, I split that face value....wait wait wait. Do I just split the win or do I also split your original bet with you......you really really really need to rethink this. Regardless of your thought process, EITHER way, your math if is off face of the planet and is ridiculous to the extreme.

No, my math is not off! I understand exactly what you are saying. What you don't seem, or want to understand is that you are stealing from the other player by not splitting with him, and the casino may have the attitude that you're stealing from them. It's still his hand to play, and he's still equally invested in his hand. If you can get away with playing out his hand for him, more power to you, but in the casinos I play in, any such attempt to play another person's hand for him will result in a stern warning the first time and a permanent eviction from the casino the second time. Furthermore, if this becomes a somewhat common practice and the casino thinks you're stealing their surrenders they may decide to do away with surrender completely. I don't believe you can technically "buy" other players surrender...you are in effect getting him to rescind his surrender and you are investing 50% in his hand. Like I said, if you can then convince him to give you all the proceeds, go for it, but you are in effect robbing him blind. Why not just reach over and steal chips from him in plain sight?

[21gunsalute]

So you would let the person think he was buying your hand for what you demanded when you decided to surrender and then cheat him on the deal? He sure isn't going to buy it as a partner. The only way it happens is if you deceive him and then cheat him.

I guarantee you nobody else feels the same way as you do. If they decide to sell their hand to the casino for half their bet they would be happy to sell it to anyone else at the same price. They aren't looking to gouge or cheat their fellow players. Once you show you aren't allied with the other players but would sell your hand to the casino at half the price that you would sell it to anyone else, the next thing you know every dealer error coming your way will be pointed out. It will cost you far more in the long run to screw your fellow player by cheating him on the deal to sell your hand at half price. I have seen people 86ed for these sorts of things. The casino won't take a side in the dispute but will kick you out if it makes a big enough seen or upsets enough people. Why would you do that when you are trying to fly under the radar? The typical players feel allegiance with other players and would never do it. You risk all dealer errors and the right to play BJ to cheat the guy you made the deal with.

Is this an example of the AP turning into a jerk after enough play? There have been threads on this. I enjoy playing enough I can't see it happening but I guess some others just get jaded and become mean like the other thread said.

Look you cannot technically "buy" a surrender from another player. You are coercing him to rescind the surrender to have the hand played out. If the hand is played then there was no surrender. All you are doing, technically speaking, is investing in his hand 50%. That's how this is going to be viewed by the casino. So if you keep all the proceeds, the casino may very well view you as a thief and also as someone who coerced a good customer into making a bad deal.

[21gunsalute]

Great point Freightman. I don't think he cares though. He just seems to be looking for angles to get money out of other players by changing the deal.

Wrong, I have no interest in this deal from either perspective! But look in the mirror because that is precisely what you are doing. The other player already made a deal to surrender his hand to the casino and now you're coercing him to rescind a play he's already decided on.

[21gunsalute]

So basically what I got from the thread -- 21gun is one of those people that'll sell you his hand then won't give you what you're entitled to. Cheater.

No, I'm saying if he wants to invest 50% in my hand I'm subject to 50% of the proceeds. I was going to surrender my hand, but I was coerced by Tthree to play it out. We are now invested in this hand equally and I am entitled to 50% of the proceeds. Why would I agree to this if I get nothing in return and still have to play out the hand?

[Pacman]

No, I'm saying if he wants to invest 50% in my hand I'm subject to 50% of the proceeds. I was going to surrender my hand, but I was coerced by Tthree to play it out. We are now invested in this hand equally and I am entitled to 50% of the proceeds. Why would I agree to this if I get nothing in return and still have to play out the hand?

Because you were going to surrender..
I think your looking at the situation funny. If you are going to surrender and instead i pay you what you would have got for the surrender in exchange to play out the hand, you no longer have any stock in the hand. Im not investing 50%, I'm BUYING your hand = mine. This works only if you were going to surrender of course. What sense does it make for someone to buy your hand that you were about to give up, and then split the winnings? Reminds me of when someone doesn't wanna double (or cant) and i say i will for them, and then they jus give me back what i gave them and keep the double winnings!! Jerks. What wouldve happened if they lost? Would i still get reimbursed?

~Pac

[Three]

Look you cannot technically "buy" a surrender from another player. You are coercing him to rescind the surrender to have the hand played out. If the hand is played then there was no surrender. All you are doing, technically speaking, is investing in his hand 50%. That's how this is going to be viewed by the casino. So if you keep all the proceeds, the casino may very well view you as a thief and also as someone who coerced a good customer into making a bad deal.

I give up. If he thinks you agreeing with the other player to buy his hand for the amount he sells it for is then an agreement with the other player to invest 50% in his hand it is clear don't make any deals with 21gunsalute. The bargain you make will not be the bargain get. remind me not to play on a team with him. I don't want anyone on my team deciding the deal the team made with him is not fair. That once the money is in the circle it is then his money not those that had a playing arrangement with him and he will decide who gets the proceeds or how it is split up rather than the agreement he made.

[RS]

I will try, one last time, to show you how you are not "robbing him blind".

Ploppy gets 13, dealer has a T. Ploppy has a $100 bet. He doesn't think he will win, so he wants to surrender. HE WILL LOSE THE $100 BET, BUT WILL "WIN" $50 BACK FROM THE CASINO BY SURRENDERING. Read that sentence 10 times. Now read it 10 times again.

I'm at the table, and think, "Whoah, I can get an edge on this [while not f*cking the player over], let's give it a shot!" So, I kindly ask the player, "Hey, since you're surrendering 50% of your bet anyway, instead of giving that $50 to the casino, how about you surrender the hand to me, and I'll give you $50? But I get to the play the hand out and it's mine." The ploppy thinks, "Why sure, that's an amazing idea! Either way, I will be getting $50 back and will not have the ability to play the hand, sure. Cough up $50 and the hand is yours."

I have my 13, hit it against the dealer's ten, land an 8, and win the hand when the dealer flips over another T for 20, beating him with a 21. While I reach for the chips that I just won, 21gun pops out of the shadows and says to the ploppy, "Excuse me, sir, but you just got robbed blind. You see, you had a $100 bet, and instead of getting $50 back from the casino, you got the $50 from another player. You got robbed." The ploppy, as stupid as he may be, becomes a bit disgruntled that anyone would even say such a thing, "Umm......either way, I was going to get $50 back but give up the $100 on the hand." Without a second passing, 21gun responds, "That's true, but what you didn't realize is that the player just made TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS off of your hand. Since he paid 50% for it, you are both invested in the hand 50/50, so you should get $100 of those $200." The ploppy turns to him, and says, "Listen here, ******, I was going to surrender the hand regardless. We are not 'equally invested' or whatever the f*ck you're trying to tell me. We made a deal. The deal was that he pays me $50 and the hand is his. He didn't 'coerce me' into giving up the hand to him as I was going to surrender, losing half my bet. Capiche, amigo?" ..... "But the magical flow of the cards! Now they're out of order. THAT is how he effed you over!"

[Freightman]

No, I'm saying if he wants to invest 50% in my hand I'm subject to 50% of the proceeds. I was going to surrender my hand, but I was coerced by Tthree to play it out. We are now invested in this hand equally and I am entitled to 50% of the proceeds. Why would I agree to this if I get nothing in return and still have to play out the hand?

Nobody has yet asked the question, and to quote one of the classic lines from the first minutes of the first Dirty Harry movie -

I GOTS TO KNOW - are you advocating that you would also share in the loss, which means that you would accept 25% from your table mate vs. 50% from your casino.

[Jabberwocky]

It is common protocol that when something is sold the seller relinquishes all previous interest or involvement in item. It's a binding contractual agreement.

[21gunsalute]

I give up. If he thinks you agreeing with the other player to buy his hand for the amount he sells it for is then an agreement with the other player to invest 50% in his hand it is clear don't make any deals with 21gunsalute. The bargain you make will not be the bargain get. remind me not to play on a team with him. I don't want anyone on my team deciding the deal the team made with him is not fair. That once the money is in the circle it is then his money not those that had a playing arrangement with him and he will decide who gets the proceeds or how it is split up rather than the agreement he made.

Quit being a stubborn idiot. I'd never make such a deal. What part of "I don't want any part of this deal" do you not understand?

[21gunsalute]

Because you were going to surrender..
I think your looking at the situation funny. If you are going to surrender and instead i pay you what you would have got for the surrender in exchange to play out the hand, you no longer have any stock in the hand. Im not investing 50%, I'm BUYING your hand = mine. This works only if you were going to surrender of course. What sense does it make for someone to buy your hand that you were about to give up, and then split the winnings? Reminds me of when someone doesn't wanna double (or cant) and i say i will for them, and then they jus give me back what i gave them and keep the double winnings!! Jerks. What wouldve happened if they lost? Would i still get reimbursed?

~Pac

I do still have stock in the hand. I'm still required to play out the hand! Why would I give you a chance to make money when I'm going to lose money on the same hand that I have to play out? That makes no sense whatsoever! If you want in on it, then we go 50/50, but I'm not about to play out a hand and then have you try to stiff me out of my fair share. Where's my incentive for playing out the hand, and why on earth would I allow you to profit off from my hand when I can only lose money on it and still have to play it out? I might as well keep drawing until I bust then...it makes no difference to me.