What I am saying is that none of the casinos I play at would allow this, and I don't know anyone who would allow themselves to be taken advantage of in this fashion more than once. If you want to buy my surrender, have at it, but you're going to have to split the proceeds with me if we win.Originally Posted by Tthree
Hmmmm, let me see if I read you right- for a proposition that is far less than 50% win proposition - I buy your bet at half it's face value, lose that value if the bet loses, then if I win the hand winning an amount equal to the face value, I split that face value....wait wait wait. Do I just split the win or do I also split your original bet with you......you really really really need to rethink this. Regardless of your thought process, EITHER way, your math if is off face of the planet and is ridiculous to the extreme.
Scavenger plays: Mathematically, yes of course +EV, some big +EV! But there is a downside, and this thread demonstrated some of that. There are disputes that occur. And disputes cause attention. Even if your scavenger plays don't lead to disputes, they draw attention that you may not realize. Anything out of the ordinary draw attention. Players exchanging chips at the table. Players playing other players spots. These are things the EITS is supposed to notice.
Now sure, an occasional red chip transaction of buying someone split, double down or insurance probably won't definitively label you an AP. But you have provided another peice of info to look at and there can be an accumulative effect, especially if playing your regular rotation of stores. And if you are playing green, black and beyond, you just multiply the whole issue several times. It is just counterproductive to my longterm goals and not worth the little bit of extra EV, except very extreme circumstances. (risk vs reward)
Last edited by KJ; 08-14-2013 at 10:06 AM.
So you would let the person think he was buying your hand for what you demanded when you decided to surrender and then cheat him on the deal? He sure isn't going to buy it as a partner. The only way it happens is if you deceive him and then cheat him.
I guarantee you nobody else feels the same way as you do. If they decide to sell their hand to the casino for half their bet they would be happy to sell it to anyone else at the same price. They aren't looking to gouge or cheat their fellow players. Once you show you aren't allied with the other players but would sell your hand to the casino at half the price that you would sell it to anyone else, the next thing you know every dealer error coming your way will be pointed out. It will cost you far more in the long run to screw your fellow player by cheating him on the deal to sell your hand at half price. I have seen people 86ed for these sorts of things. The casino won't take a side in the dispute but will kick you out if it makes a big enough seen or upsets enough people. Why would you do that when you are trying to fly under the radar? The typical players feel allegiance with other players and would never do it. You risk all dealer errors and the right to play BJ to cheat the guy you made the deal with.
Is this an example of the AP turning into a jerk after enough play? There have been threads on this. I enjoy playing enough I can't see it happening but I guess some others just get jaded and become mean like the other thread said.
Great point Freightman. I don't think he cares though. He just seems to be looking for angles to get money out of other players by changing the deal.
I played at a table with a guy that routinely went all-in on two hands and offered his doubles and splits to anyone at the table. He just wanted to see people get a chance too beat the casino. He was independently wealthy and just enjoyed helping the little guy get his chance. You would be amazed how few would take him up on it. He would need to split aces but nobody wanted a free ace. I would always take that deal even though his bets were huge compared to mine.
I'm doing my best to view this as objectively as possible, I see more possible issues, from reguarly buying surrender hands off of players.
Like this thread has addressed earlier, there needs to be some sort of incentive, of why the surrending player would want to unecessairly go through additional steps by dealing with the scavenger, whereas he can get the same result with absolutely no complications with the dealer.
So why should the surrending player, continue playing out his hand after he has surrendered???
He wont gain anything from doing this.
I know, by putting myself in their shoes, that this would NOT go over well with me. If I'm doing extra work (hitting once and possibly multiple times) for someone else and on top of that, I see I'm making them money, yet I dont make a dime, then something needs to be changed or I need to get rewarded or something.
Any suggestions of what I could do to want to make the surrending player want to surrender his hand to me, instead of the house?
But I'm talking about doing this consistently with the same player, each night. I have a plethora of potential candidates to choose from at these local casinos in my area. So once I can settle down with the same player, we would both have a committed agreement amongst ourselves. Since we would both be on the same page. Plus we would get better after time, as far as him surrending his hand to me, and make the trades as discreetly as possible to not warrant any unwated attention.
Basically I could train him and we could have our own language for each other when the opportunity of buying/selling surrender hands is presented to us. That way it wont look so obvious and we could discreetly handle our business.
Possibly sqaure up after the round, and not continuously exchange money while the shoe is in process.
If he doesn't want to do it don't try to sell the idea. Most reasonable people are happy to do it. Some would never consider it. I wouldn't pay anyone extra for this. I would pay someone if they waited for a fresh shoe and I kicked arse on it especially if someone else refused to wait. Then they would get a big payoff and the other guy will feel he lost a lot by not waiting.
What works for most people is to ask them. They need no incentive. They are surrendering anyway. If they do it a few times and you are winning you might give them a white chip or put a white chip up for them on your side bet. many people play just to play the side bet. I would just thank him appreciatively. That is plenty for most people.
See my comments under yoursI'm doing my best to view this as objectively as possible, I see more possible issues, from reguarly buying surrender hands off of players.
Like this thread has addressed earlier, there needs to be some sort of incentive, of why the surrending player would want to unecessairly go through additional steps by dealing with the scavenger, whereas he can get the same result with absolutely no complications with the dealer.
No incentive is needed, just a friendly arrangements between players. Most of he time, he will think you're an idiot anyways.
So why should the surrending player, continue playing out his hand after he has surrendered???
He wont gain anything from doing this.
He doesn't, the buyer makes the play decision
I know, by putting myself in their shoes, that this would NOT go over well with me. If I'm doing extra work (hitting once and possibly multiple times) for someone else and on top of that, I see I'm making them money, yet I dont make a dime, then something needs to be changed or I need to get rewarded or something.
You get paid your regular surrender and what you want is no longer part of the equation. Why would you care anyway?
Any suggestions of what I could do to want to make the surrending player want to surrender his hand to me, instead of the house?
Just ask him - say something stupid if you like - about helping to preserve the flow of cards or whatever - there is usually a general camaderie between players who view this as us against the house.
But I'm talking about doing this consistently with the same player, each night. I have a plethora of potential candidates to choose from at these local casinos in my area. So once I can settle down with the same player, we would both have a committed agreement amongst ourselves. Since we would both be on the same page. Plus we would get better after time, as far as him surrending his hand to me, and make the trades as discreetly as possible to not warrant any unwated attention.
Just make sure beforehand that his plays leave a bit to be desired
R
Basically I could train him and we could have our own language for each other when the opportunity of buying/selling surrender hands is presented to us. That way it wont look so obvious and we could discreetly handle our business.
Just do it - if the agreement is there. No training needed.
Possibly sqaure up after the round, and not continuously exchange money while the shoe is in process.
No - settle on the spot - no one needs to think they have been cheated and the dealer couldn't care less - but make sure you're sitting next to each other and not passing money over under players - that will piss off the house
Yeah. He wants to surrender but instead thinks it's better to be 50% partner in the hand. Then he should want to surrender that 50%. It isn't any better bet than the original bet was. It is just half the size. I am not sure why he wants to surrender hands that other people would buy anyway. LOL
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