Enough with the stereotypes already. Haven't you learned anything here?Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
I did no such thing. You keep making generalized comments alluding to such. All I did was to defend myself against baseless attacks by you Tthree and Rolling Stoned, and I see at least in your case that these baseless attacks are still continuing.
you are allowed to lie or tell the truth in poker (in most venues, lots of places have stupid rules) but you cannot discuss the hand if it is 3 way or more. anyway exploiting ploppy errors is great but this will draw a lot of attention to yourself, so i'd reserve it for the most high ev opportunities possible. scavenger doubling, for example, i've even seen ploppies do this. what is the Ev of taking insurance at TC 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 w/ hi lo? most of the ev's of scavenger plays can be determined by examining the expected value tables at bjmath.com
21gun, I am sorry about the way things went but you were pushing a ridiculous argument as was pointed out by so many in so many ways. You get a loser hand that nobody would ask to have (and certainly wouldn't pay to be a partner in) and decide to surrender. Someone looks at your bad surrender and sees you throwing away EV in favor of no variance and offer to pay you the price you have already set for your hand. If you tell them you want to be partners any individual that would attempt to buy the hand would refuse unless you are being insanely stupid like surrendering 11 v 6 or something.
To people actually considering the point at hand your argument is absurd due to these points. Either you are saying you would surrender an insanely stupid hand or that someone buying a losing hand for a bargain would also become a partner in a losing proposition. We all know that will never happen. That only leaves the third option that you intend to deceive the other player and change the deal after the play or everything you are saying is moot. This means you are simply saying no to selling your surrender and nothing else will happen unless you intend to rip the buyer off. You say that isn't the case yet continue to argue a moot position. It is pointless and indicates you intend to deceive in order to rip another player off. Clearly that is the way everyone is sorting out the absurd disassociation of what you are saying. What you are arguing is simply never ever going to happen so people think you are arguing another point. Why argue a point that is impossible. It is wasting everybody's time.
The only way I would buy a surrendered hand is if a player says I know I shouldn't surrender as it costs me money in the long run but I am going to anyway. Does anyone want to match the casino's offer to play my hand out as their own?
Last edited by Three; 09-03-2013 at 05:14 AM.
I can't believe this continues on. Why get so spirited over something that should be nothing more than a hypothetical situation. For me it has nothing to do with morals, or ethics. I find that a little absurd here. Its not about what is your theoretical +EV play either. Its more about its a really a bad move to pull in general in practical casino use because it stands out like a sore thumb and screams "look at me"! There are new player questions like, "should I ask to see the burn card if I don't catch it"? "Will that make me look like a counter?" The most common answer to this is, its no big deal either way. It has very little effect if you miss it, and tons of ploppies ask to see it, so if you feel the need to ask, do as the ploppies do. There is the key, do as the ploppies do. Ploppies do not buy surrender hands. They have so little understanding of playing it properly that as valuable as it is to an AP, it is much more valuable to the casino. If someone starts pulling plays at the table against the normal protocol, especially one that blatantly negates a nice house edge, it will draw attention. When a player does something out of the ordinary and buys surrender hands, it says you are either too smart for the casino's liking, or they may suspect a hustler at the table. Either way neither is a good thing for what is really your +EV.....longevity.
As I stated before, its not a bad idea to look at things like this to maybe help get a grasp on the game and how to find possible edges. But a degree of casino presence needs to take the bottom line from any play that is made. Hide in plain sight by looking as others around you. Its a real simple premise, just like counting is, but few seem to be able to co mingle the two. Its nice to be able to play smarter than anyone else at the table, but if you let that intelligence shine through due to ego or lack of casino awareness, the only table you'll be playing at will be in your kitchen.
Last edited by Tbonz; 09-03-2013 at 07:01 AM.
Quit taking a hypothetical situation with a hypothetical player and applying it directly to me. You made it sound to everyone here that I actually screwed you out of something or attempted to do so. I don't know you and you don't know me, but I'm pretty sure we've never played at the same table. But if we had played at the same table you wouldn't be attempting to buy my surrenders because I wouldn't be surrendering hands that I shouldn't. Again, having stated this, if by chance you did attempt to "buy my surrender" I would not sell you the hand since I'm going to have to play it out, unless you agreed to split the proceeds 50/50. Capice? I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I'VE ALREADY STATED THIS, BUT PLEASE TRY TO GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL! I'M NOT RENEGGING ON A DEAL! THOSE ARE MY TERMS...IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN DON'T PARTICIPATE, JUST LIKE I DON'T LIKE YOUR TERMS SO I'M NOT GOING TO ALLOW YOU TO "BUY MY SURRENDER"! I'M GOING TO SURRENDER MY HAND JUST LIKE I PLANNED ON DOING IN THE FIRST PLACE! ACTUALLY THOUGH I DON'T BELIEVE FOR A MINUTE THAT YOU'RE SIMPLY THICK HEADED-I BELIEVE YOU INTENTIONALLY TRIED TO MISLEAD EVERYONE HERE INTO THINKING I'M A BAD APPLE SIMPLY BECAUSE WE DISAGREE ON THIS MATTER! I'VE HAD MORE THAN ENOUGH OF YOUR DOUBLE TALK AND YOUR TWISTING EVERYTHING AROUND! I'VE HAD MORE THAN ENOUGH OF YOUR BASELESS ALLEGATIONS AND UNWARRANTED INSULTS. I'VE HAD MORE THAN ENOUGH OF YOUR OUT AND OUT SLANDER! ALL I DID WAS DISAGREE WITH YOU AND THE REASONS I STATED FOR MY DISAGREEMENT HAVE BEEN VERIFIED BY SEVERAL PROFESSIONALS HERE. I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND YOUR POSITION AND I CERTAINLY AGREE WITH THE MATH INVOLVED. WE DISAGREE ON THE MERITS OF THE IMPLEMENTATION OF SAID STRATEGY. THAT SHOULD NOT BE A SORE POINT FOR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE, AND IT DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO SLANDER ME, HECKLE ME AND/OR TWIST MY WORDS! WE CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE AND I'M FINE WITH THAT, BUT ALL THIS OTHER CRAP IS NOTHING BUT AN UNWARRANTED ATTACK AGAINST ME, AND I WILL CONTINUE TO DEFEND MYSELF AGAINST YOUR BASELESS, TRUTHLESS ATTACKS!
21gun, I was apologizing for how things went and explaining that you arguing a moot point that will never ever happen makes people believe you are arguing something else. I explained it very clearly I believe as to how you endlessly arguing about something off point that will never ever happen caused every reasonable person to believe you had to be arguing something else. You still continue at it. Nobody who is trying to buy a surrender hand will ever go partners unless the surrender is so unbelievably bad like a huge +EV hand. You slapped back the hand of friendship and continue your attacks rather than understand why people don't understand what you are saying because it will never happen.
It is like talking about moon rocks and some guy joins in saying if the moon were made of blue cheese you could eat it. Well the moon isn't made of blue cheese and nobody is going partners on a surrender hand unless the real possibility of the seller renegging happens. This is a consideration and danger for any scavenger play. Try to understand that you are arguing a moot and pointless point so we can all move on. The fact that you continue to fight when the hand of friendship is offered along with an explanation of how everyone can't understand your logic says a lot. Now please can you except the apology offered by me for everyone and stop talking about the moon being made of blue cheese. The player offers to share the hand and the buyer refuses the same as if the seller simply didn't want to do anything other than surrender to the casino.
Last edited by Three; 09-03-2013 at 02:15 PM.
The thing that got me was this: The player wanted to surrender his hand. When another player offers to buy his surrender...all of a sudden, the terms CHANGE.
It'd be like, if a player is doubling down 11v6, but doesn't have enough (or doesn't want) to double for the full amount, and another player asks if he can put money ($50) on the rest of the double. After the hand wins, the original player says something like, "Well, the terms change once you put money on my hand. Your money doesn't get paid 1:1, but it gets paid 0.5:1 -- so here's your $75 ... I'll be keeping the other $25."
"Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]
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