Casino rounds up on BJ payout with $2.50 chip

[Purple Rain]

One of my local stores uses $2.50 and dollar chips, but no quarters. When a player gets blackjack with a bet that includes one $2.50 chip (so $5.50, $6.50, $7.50, etc.), the dealer pays the $2.50 chip with four dollar chips (total of $4).

So if a player flat bet $5.50, he would receive $8.50 for each blackjack -- about a 3 percent increase from the standard payout of 3:2. As the player's bets increase in size, the percent increase becomes less significant (for example, a bet of $52.50 would pay $79.00, about a 0.3 percent increase).

I believe rounding up also applies at the few $5 late surrender tables at this store. Bet $5.50, surrender and get $3 back.

I'm a red chip player with a small bankroll, so minor edges are important. Most of my bets are $5, except on days when I primarily backcourt. How exploitable is this? I'm thinking I could play three hands of $5.50 in counts around +1 to maximize the number of low bets on the table. The complicated payout will slow down the game, but it might also lead to more dealer mispays.

This topic was also addressed in this thread at BlackjackInfo.com: http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=10745

[njrich]

In most stores the dealers are trained to quickly take the pinks(2.50) off the table to avoid this.
You bet pink and win ..you get paid a red and they take the pink.
Be very careful with this your going to annoy the dealer and pit crew and attract unneeded attention for a couple penny's.

[Shark]

You get BJ approximately once in 21 hands. In 100 rounds you have almost 5 BJ on average so by betting odd amounts you will earn almost 1.25 extra an hour. Only you can decide if the extra pay worth it to you.

[mcallister3200]

You're back playing at this place eh? 2x to the annoying dealers part, you need to make a judgement call if slowing the game down is worth it. If you have a history of a couple prior backoffs over a year ago now, I personally don't think it would be worth it to draw attention to you as you don't have a lot of quality games to choose from. And if I'm correct in my assumption about the specific place you are talking about, that is the easiest place I've ever come across for backcounting with how close slot machined are to tables on the main floor.

[shadroch]

How does a $5 bettor get a history of backoffs?

[mcallister3200]

Posters posting history indicates he has.

[Purple Rain]

You're back playing at this place eh? 2x to the annoying dealers part, you need to make a judgement call if slowing the game down is worth it. If you have a history of a couple prior backoffs over a year ago now, I personally don't think it would be worth it to draw attention to you as you don't have a lot of quality games to choose from. And if I'm correct in my assumption about the specific place you are talking about, that is the easiest place I've ever come across for backcounting with how close slot machined are to tables on the main floor.

This is that place's next-door neighbor. But I think the payout applies at both places.

I was backed off for playing the side bet. From my experience and from reading this forum and BlackjackInfo, red chippers can count freely at these places at reasonable spreads if they avoid the side bet and use common sense (limit session length, backcount, leave after big win, rathole if rated, etc.).

You get BJ approximately once in 21 hands. In 100 rounds you have almost 5 BJ on average so by betting odd amounts you will earn almost 1.25 extra an hour. Only you can decide if the extra pay worth it to you.

It's not worth it for just blackjacks, but what about surrender? I'm guessing I can make a lot more if I get $3 back for every surrendered bet of $5.50.

Given my small bankroll, it's important that I limit variance while maintaining a decent EV. And I can't backcount for long at this neighbor store, nor can I play the side bet.

Practically, this is probably a difficult tactic to use regularly. But I think it's worth trying, at least in small doses, if it produces enough EV mathematically.

[darco77]

I once played at a store that rounded up in these scenarios, and the dealer wasn't bothered by it at all. In fact, she found the whole thing humorous and was encouraging red chippers to engage in it. In your case, you need to weigh out the different aspects of your scenario and decide if it's worth it.

[Purple Rain]

I once played at a store that rounded up in these scenarios, and the dealer wasn't bothered by it at all. In fact, she found the whole thing humorous and was encouraging red chippers to engage in it. In your case, you need to weigh out the different aspects of your scenario and decide if it's worth it.

Humorous because she knew players were trying to exploit it?

I did some rough calculations, which resulted in these findings:
1) Using this tactic while flat betting $5.50 removes the house edge of 0.48 percent and gives a basic strategy player an edge of about 0.10 percent (basic strategy in this case includes plays such as surrendering 14 v 10).
2) I can make an extra $3-7 an hour, depending on how aggressively I bet with $2.50 chips, using this tactic.

EDIT: I found another thread on this subject at the Wizard of Vegas forum: http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambl...a-in-pa-sands/

This reply was especially interesting:

That's true here in MN, too. Players can ask for $2.50 chips at any time. They're also given on BJ and on surrenders. Also, the incorrect rounding on surrender is very common. I notice it most on a bet of $52.50, which surrenders to $27 (one green, two whites) instead of $26.50 (4 red, one pink, 4 white).

[RS]

I would try it out and see which dealers are "ok" with it, as darco said. If the dealer is not responding well to it (as I'm sure most will be in this category), then just bet regular amounts.

If you have a $5.50 bet and when/if you surrender you get $3.00 back instead of $2.75, that should be enough to have more "basic" strategy surrenders.

[mcallister3200]

I believe off the top house advantage is 0.46 rather than .48 for that game, semantics. Interesting that surrender is the correct bs play for that bet on 14 vs. 10; applause for looking into that.

[Joker21]

A $7 bet wouldn't work because the payout would be $10.50 which is a red, pink, and 3 whites so there would be no rounding involved

[mcallister3200]

Yup I'm stupid. Jokers post is in response to an incorrect post I edited.