# Thread: JB: Counting with KO

1. ## JB: Counting with KO

What's the best way to count the cards using KO? I am learning using Casino Verite and I just want to make sure I do it the easiest/best way.

Also, I'm thinking it might be easier to minimize negative numbers by making my IRC say +5. Assuming a 6 deck shoe, what would be my new pivot point, key count, and matrix value?

2. ## Don Schlesinger: Re: Counting with KO

> What's the best way to count the cards using
> KO? I am learning using Casino Verite and I
> just want to make sure I do it the
> easiest/best way.

I'm assuming that you mean, while sitting at the table, what is the most expeditious procedure for actually keeping the running count. Is that correct? If so, for a shoe game, most people do the following:

Wait until all the players' first cards have been dealt. As the dealer lays the second card on each player's hand, count the pairs of cards, in order, around the table, including your own (there is an alternative to this approach, which I'll get to in a minute). Then, count the dealer's upcard (or, count it right away, before the pairs -- your choice).

Next, count all the hit cards of all the players. Then, count the dealer's hole card, which he flips to his left and your right. Then, count the dealer's hit cards, which are placed on his right and your left. Finally, should any double-down cards be dealt face down (as happens on occasion), coun them as the dealer exposes them.

Many players, once they get more proficient, do not count each pair of cards, in turn, around the table. Rather, they wait until ALL the cards have been dealt and then "scan" the table, cancelling out high and low pairs, or clusters of cards, wherever they may lie. Once you get the knack, it's the fastest possible way to count the whole layout in literally just a couple of seconds.

> Also, I'm thinking it might be easier to
> minimize negative numbers by making my IRC
> say +5. Assuming a 6 deck shoe, what would
> be my new pivot point, key count, and matrix
> value?

If you were using -20 (for 6 decks) as your IRC, and you propose +5, then you're adding 25 to the recommended way. So, the +4 pivot would become +29, and the key counts (if you use different ones at different levels of penetration) would all increase by 25, as would all the indices.

Hope this helps.

Don

3. ## chgobjpro: Dealer flip

> Then, count the dealer's hole card,
> which he flips to his left and your right.

I've played with some dealers that get "cute" with the flip. Normally it's as you say, but sometimes they very the flip and put the up card on the left leaving the hole card second from the left. Then they vary it. You have to watch for uniformity. I've had this happen to me a few times.

4. ## Praying Mantis: 6D with KO

> What's the best way to count the cards using
> KO? I am learning using Casino Verite and I
> just want to make sure I do it the
> easiest/best way.

> Also, I'm thinking it might be easier to
> minimize negative numbers by making my IRC
> say +5. Assuming a 6 deck shoe, what would
> be my new pivot point, key count, and matrix
> value?

IRC starting at Zero, Key would be 16, Insurance would be 23 and Pivot would be 24. You can adjust these figures anyway you like.

Less than 15 you would hit 13 v 2&3, Hit 12 v 4,5,&6.

Stand 16 v 10 at Key.

Stand 16 v 9, 15 v 10, 12 v 2&3, DD 10 v 10&Ace, 9 v 7, 8 v 6, and 8 v 5 at the Pivot.

Believe I got these correct, Parker will help us.

PM

5. ## Parker: Correction

> Less than 15 you would hit 13 v 2&3, Hit 12
> v 4,5,&6.

These should be hit these at or below the IRC. Actually, Fuchs & Vancura recommend that these indices not be used at all with 6 or 8 deck shoes, as they are far from the pivot and greatly affected by penetration level.

7. ## Hollywood: Re: Counting with KO

> What's the best way to count the cards using
> KO? I am learning using Casino Verite and I
> just want to make sure I do it the
> easiest/best way.

> Also, I'm thinking it might be easier to
> minimize negative numbers by making my IRC
> say +5. Assuming a 6 deck shoe, what would
> be my new pivot point, key count, and matrix
> value?

I have always had trouble with negative numbers.

So I play my 6 deck KO game starting at 40 instread of 20.

What the books says to do at -4 I do at 24.

I take insurance at 17 instead of plus 3 etc.
All the same thing, just another way to do it.

There are many different ways to do it.

This is only my suggestion if you don't like that plus minus stuff.

Hollywood

8. ## Don Schlesinger: Re: Counting with KO

> I have always had trouble with negative
> numbers.

> So I play my 6 deck KO game starting at 40

Um, there's a little problem here. The usual IRC for K-O is -4(number of decks) + 4. So, for 6-decks, the usual IRC is -4(6) + 4 = -20, not +20!!

> What the books says to do at -4 I do at 24.

Tell me it isn't so!! -4 is 24 higher than -24. For you to do the same thing at +24, you would have to be starting at zero for your IRC. What am I missing??

> I take insurance at 17 instead of plus 3
> etc.
> All the same thing, just another way to do
> it.

> There are many different ways to do it.

Let's hope this is right. But, from what you wrote above, I'm confused. I would have been happier had you written, "I start my 6-deck game at zero, instead of -20."

Don

9. ## JB: Re: Counting with KO

> Um, there's a little problem here. The usual
> IRC for K-O is -4(number of decks) + 4. So,
> for 6-decks, the usual IRC is -4(6) + 4 =
> -20, not +20!!

> Tell me it isn't so!! -4 is 24 higher than
> -24. For you to do the same thing at +24,
> you would have to be starting at zero for
> your IRC. What am I missing??

> Let's hope this is right. But, from what you
> wrote above, I'm confused. I would have been
> happier had you written, "I start my
> 6-deck game at zero, instead of -20."

> Don

I took this to mean he starts with an IRC of -40 and counts down, so the count is always negetive but the negetive can generally be disregarded unless the RC becomes extremely high (some problem!)

JB

10. ## Don Schlesinger: Re: Counting with KO

> I took this to mean he starts with an IRC of
> -40 and counts down, so the count is always
> negative but the negative can generally be
> disregarded unless the RC becomes extremely
> high (some problem!)

No, not at all. I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

Don

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