The Prince: A day at the casino

[The Prince]

Well, I was wonging at a casino. I was being careful, not standing directly behind a player and staring at every card. Rather, I stood behind a non-blackjack game, and glanced over whenever cards where dealt. During payoffs and shuffles I would revert back to watching the game in front of me. But it wasn't long before I heard what sounded like... "something, something, backcounting". I looked over and one of the players at this table had a pit supervisor next to him and said, while looking at me "this gentleman is backcounting". Immediately I looked at the non-blackjack game in front of me and focused my intention completely on this game for the next five minutes (I figured walking immediately away would look awful suspicious, and only verify his "discovery". Then I cashed out and left. I must admit it unnerved me pretty bad, especially since I thought I was doing a fairly good job looking normal. I was depressed and angry over being caught and kept beating myself up. But also I was really angry at this older guy, whoever he was. I ran questions through my mind like "What kind of player would even notice that? And even if he did, why would he care enough to tell the supervisor? Is he trying to be a hero or something?" He knew what backcounting was, and suspected me of doing it, so he had at least some knowledge of card counting. But if he was a counter himself, why would he rat out on me? It didn't hit me till later that maybe he was a counter catcher. But I never figured the casino was big enough, prestigious enough, or important enough in the casino world to have these. But I can't think of who else would first off notice me, and secondly turn me in.

Is what I did afterward the right thing? Or should I just have high-tailed it out of there. I never even looked at the man or the supervisor or any personnel again, so I don't know what happened? Hopefully they didn't take my picture? They hadn't seen me play a hand or take any of their money as I was mostly practicing counting as opposed to playing, so I wouldn't think they'd do that, but I'm not that experienced in the casino world yet. Any thoughts on the situations and how to avoid it in the future would be appreciated. Thanks.

The Prince

[Norm Wattenberger]

but another possibility is he was a counter that wanted the table to himself. It wouldn't be the first time an AP outed another for this reason.

[bfbagain]

1) You were standing around near that same table for an inordinate amount of time, unless I misread something in your post. 2) Assuming that you were backcounting, is it possible that your lips were moving? 3) You didn't play at all, correct? So you couldn't have been a threat, unless your comportment was like a neon sign. 4) You may have over-reacted.

Was this in Vegas? It would be helpful if you gave a general location. You won't be disclosing anything by identifying Vegas, or Reno, or Biloxi, or Tunica, or AC. If it's in the midwest, that's all you have to say.

I'm sure, if for example, it was Vegas, that you don't anything to be concerned about, as in a surveillance photo.

However, if it was a local casino, where there's only a few, and you were that easily identified where you hadn't even played a hand, then you have bigger issues. We would need a little more info I think.

bfb

[Don Schlesinger]

I agree with Norm. Sounds like a scumbag variety of counter, so f**kin' greedy that he would reveal your identity solely to keep you from moving in on his positive counts.

With a little luck, maybe he lost all his money. :-)

On the other hand, while you were watching, had you determined he was a counter, I would NOT play at his table, to protect yourself.

Don

[Parker]

The other player was likely an established local counter who resented the fact that you were apparently about to wong into "his" table.

It is generally considered poor form to wong into a table where another counter is playing all. Of course, it is considered really poor form to rat out another counter to the pit, which doesn't keep some jerks from doing it.

Had it been me, I would have acted oblivious to the comments, continued to watch until the shuffle, and then sat down and played a shoe or two, using BJA type camo (only raise after a win, etc.). Of course, it takes a bit of panache to pull off a move like this, and you may have been wise to wait until you have more experience in the casino environment.

[Hollywood]

> Well, I was wonging at a casino. I was being
> careful, not standing directly behind a
> player and staring at every card. Rather, I
> stood behind a non-blackjack game, and
> glanced over whenever cards where dealt.
> During payoffs and shuffles I would revert
> back to watching the game in front of me.
> But it wasn't long before I heard what
> sounded like... "something, something,
> backcounting". I looked over and one of
> the players at this table had a pit
> supervisor next to him and said, while
> looking at me "this gentleman is
> backcounting". Immediately I looked at
> the non-blackjack game in front of me and
> focused my intention completely on this game
> for the next five minutes (I figured walking
> immediately away would look awful
> suspicious, and only verify his
> "discovery". Then I cashed out and
> left. I must admit it unnerved me pretty
> bad, especially since I thought I was doing
> a fairly good job looking normal. I was
> depressed and angry over being caught and
> kept beating myself up. But also I was
> really angry at this older guy, whoever he
> was. I ran questions through my mind like
> "What kind of player would even notice
> that? And even if he did, why would he care
> enough to tell the supervisor? Is he trying
> to be a hero or something?" He knew
> what backcounting was, and suspected me of
> doing it, so he had at least some knowledge
> of card counting. But if he was a counter
> himself, why would he rat out on me? It
> didn't hit me till later that maybe he was a
> counter catcher. But I never figured the
> casino was big enough, prestigious enough,
> or important enough in the casino world to
> have these. But I can't think of who else
> would first off notice me, and secondly turn
> me in.

> Is what I did afterward the right thing? Or
> should I just have high-tailed it out of
> there. I never even looked at the man or the
> supervisor or any personnel again, so I
> don't know what happened? Hopefully they
> didn't take my picture? They hadn't seen me
> play a hand or take any of their money as I
> was mostly practicing counting as opposed to
> playing, so I wouldn't think they'd do that,
> but I'm not that experienced in the casino
> world yet. Any thoughts on the situations
> and how to avoid it in the future would be
> appreciated. Thanks.

> The Prince

That's quite interesting. I can't understand for the life of me, why the guy would alert THEM?

I had an experience back in January in Aruba.

I was sitting at a table playing head to head for blacks. This guy came over and just sat down and didn't play. When the count got juicy he jumped in. It pissed me off, because im flat betting just to get rid of cards so I can get down to when it's my turn. He is letting me bet blacks to get rid of the small cards.

After the shoe was over he left.

A half hour goes by and he is back. And I don't mind telling you that I resented it. As far as I was concerned the guy was using me.

So this time when he sat down, I waited for the count to start coming in my direction and then made believe I dropped a chip. While I was picking it up I pulled on his pants and said "are you f**king kidding me or what"?. He didn't budge so I said to him so only he could hear (which was a lie) "they know your wonging, when you left before they were waiting for you to come back".

He ran like a thief.

So, I know it's the other side of the coin, I would never have alerted the casino, like your guy did.

But, I wanted this guy away from me.

It was costing me alot of flat bet money to get the count down. As far as I was concerned he was taking a ride on my train and didn't want to pay addmission.

So I understand why a fellow counter would get mad, but I can't understand why he would alert the enemy. That makes absolutly no sense.

Hollywood

[Wolverine]

If you tip off the casino that someone is Wonging or counting, aren't you putting the bullseye on your own back too? The common gambler doesn't even know what that term means--but I would hope the pit would know. The counter pulling this strategy may be cutting their own throat; unless you don't plan on staying there long (Aruba) or have an arrangment with the pit/dealer by being a regular customer that doesn't clean out the chip tray with regularity.

I've only run into a few counters in my years. All in Laughlin. One was so obvious that it was comical. The others were young kids that sat down at the table and thought they owned the place. I'll take Don and Parker's advice: cover your butt for longevity and you'll be able to slowly, but surely, extract money from the casinos.

[Hollywood]

> If you tip off the casino that someone is
> Wonging or counting, aren't you putting the
> bullseye on your own back too? The common
> gambler doesn't even know what that term
> means--but I would hope the pit would know.
> The counter pulling this strategy may be
> cutting their own throat; unless you don't
> plan on staying there long (Aruba) or have
> an arrangment with the pit/dealer by being a
> regular customer that doesn't clean out the
> chip tray with regularity.

> I've only run into a few counters in my
> years. All in Laughlin. One was so obvious
> that it was comical. The others were young
> kids that sat down at the table and thought
> they owned the place. I'll take Don and
> Parker's advice: cover your butt for
> longevity and you'll be able to slowly, but
> surely, extract money from the casinos.

The Casino never heard what I was saying to the guy. I would never make them aware of a fellow counter. That's why I put that it was a lie in perenticies.

The lie was that they were on to him, they were not. Only I was, I was just upset that he was letting me flat down the shoe and then jumping in.

When I bent down to pick up the chip, I said what I said to him while I was down there.

The casino never new what the guy was doing. Only me.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I said.

Hollywood

[Wolverine]

Hollywood, I understood that you spoke to the player, not to the general public. I'm sorry if I miscommunicated what I meant. I was speaking in general terms of the original case of this thread: a player calling out to the pit that someone is Wonging. Again, how many people (other than casino personnel and counters) know this term? I think you just wind up hanging a bullseye on your back if you use the term in a casino.

I totally understand that you were using a play all approach and then betting up on the big counts. Since I play all, one-on-one all the time, I'd be just as angry as you were in that situation. Not sure I'd have the stones to speak up about it.