Sun Runner: Questions

[Sun Runner]

Four questions ..

1. Does keeping an Ace side count while using an ace-reckoned system (Hilo or TKO) add any value to the count?

2. Same question for fives.

3. Would the 'knock' on KO that it does not identify favorable betting opportunites until deeper in the shoes still apply to TKO?

4. If a guy ever learned to ST, would using TKO be as effective (easy) as a balanced count system?

A lot of questions I know, but thanks for the patience, and respond at your convienence.

Personal to Hollywood ..

Did you see Cacarulo's post on the Main Page regarding TKO? It appears (to me) that for generic 6D w/1-20 spread it is approx 5% better than KO.

I'm sure your 1:100 spread would generate a larger increase than that.

[Don Schlesinger]

> Four questions ..

And it's not even Passover! :-)

> 1. Does keeping an Ace side count while
> using an ace-reckoned system (Hilo or TKO)
> add any value to the count?

Certainly not for betting purposes. It would be totally redundant. But, it can help for certain playing decisions and especially for insurance. Of course, much more so in SD and DD than for shoes.

> 2. Same question for fives.

Same answer, only not for insurance.

> 3. Would the 'knock' on KO be that it does not
> identify favorable betting opportunites
> until deeper in the shoes still apply to
> TKO?

No. By adjusting TC according to pen, you're eliminating that "knock."

> 4. If a guy ever learned to ST, would using
> TKO be as effective (easy) as a balanced
> count system?

Yes, I believe so, but I'm not an expert on ST.

Don

[Cacarulo]

> 1. Does keeping an Ace side count while
> using an ace-reckoned system (Hilo or TKO)
> add any value to the count?

Sure. TKO/A is much more poweful than Zen and Halves and of course than Hi-Lo/A. Here are some SCOREs that use the same rules that I posted on the BJ Main.

Rules: 6D, S17, DOA, DAS, SPA1, SPL3, NS, 5/6 pen, Catch-22 indices, 1 player, 5000 million rounds on my personal simulator.

Table of SCOREs

 

                 1-4     1-8     1-12    1-16    1-20  

TKO/A           11.67   29.47   39.09   44.98   48.96 

Zen             11.40   28.97   38.60   44.51   48.49 

UBZII(T)        11.38   28.87   38.47   44.35   48.31 

Halves          11.16   28.69   38.33   44.25   48.27 

RPC             10.90   28.27   37.86   43.78   47.80 

Mentor II       11.06   28.26   37.71   43.50   47.40 

Thorp Ult.      10.73   27.77   37.09   42.82   46.69 

Hi-Lo/A         10.80   27.77   37.02   42.69   46.55 

> 2. Same question for fives.

I don't have info for this but I suppose there should be some value although not as good as the side count of aces.

> 3. Would the 'knock' on KO that it does not
> identify favorable betting opportunites
> until deeper in the shoes still apply to
> TKO?

Being TKO a true-counted system it's able to identify any favorable betting opportunity.

> 4. If a guy ever learned to ST, would using
> TKO be as effective (easy) as a balanced
> count system?

It can be done but you need to learn some IRCs before applying any form of ST. It's easy of course with balanced systems.

> A lot of questions I know, but thanks for
> the patience, and respond at your
> convienence.

You're welcome.

Sincerely,
Cac

[Sun Runner]

> It can be done but you need to learn some
> IRCs before applying any form of ST. It's
> easy of course with balanced systems.

I thought ST'ing was easier with a balanced system but was never sure why exactly.

If I switch back to KO, and TC, maybe I'll simply resign myself to never learning to ST and just keep watching for those good/bad slugs.

(I still have to force myself NOT to count sevens anyway!)

Thanks again to you both. Off to look for that old KO info!

[Hollywood]

> Four questions ..

> 1. Does keeping an Ace side count while
> using an ace-reckoned system (Hilo or TKO)
> add any value to the count?

> 2. Same question for fives.

> 3. Would the 'knock' on KO that it does not
> identify favorable betting opportunites
> until deeper in the shoes still apply to
> TKO?

> 4. If a guy ever learned to ST, would using
> TKO be as effective (easy) as a balanced
> count system?

> A lot of questions I know, but thanks for
> the patience, and respond at your
> convienence.

> Personal to Hollywood ..

> Did you see Cacarulo's post on the Main Page
> regarding TKO? It appears (to me) that for
> generic 6D w/1-20 spread it is approx 5%
> better than KO.

> I'm sure your 1:100 spread would generate a
> larger increase than that.

Thanks Sun:

I had not seen it, but I have now.

Very very interesting.

Just as a mention, I started playing in full time cognito now and have adjusted my spread to 40 to 1.

I have reduced my bets to 2 hands of 2 units each, with a max bet of 2 hands of 20 units each.

While they are investigating my spread, i'm allready in a cab going back to my car.

With that bet spread, it's hard to lose.

Also, I have been taking Parkers advice and modifying my system.

I rarely go on the main page and would have missed that entire thread if not for you.

For a KO guy to have missed those posts would have been criminal.

Thank you,

Hollywood

[Sun Runner]

> Just as a mention, I started playing in full
> time cognito now and have adjusted my spread
> to 40 to 1.

> I have reduced my bets to 2 hands of 2 units
> each, with a max bet of 2 hands of 20 units
> each.

With all due respect, and I know there is more than one way to state the same priniple, but isn't that actually somewhere between a true spread of 1:10 and 1:13?

While I'm a low roller compared to the game you play and I know it is easier for me to get away with some of the crap I pull, I like your new style.

In, out, watch for openings, try to play the bigger counts with the bigger bets only.

I can't remember the last time I got glued to a seat and just played in to the night.

Good luck.

[Hollywood]

> With all due respect, and I know there is
> more than one way to state the same
> priniple, but isn't that actually somewhere
> between a true spread of 1:10 and 1:13?

> While I'm a low roller compared to the game
> you play and I know it is easier for me to
> get away with some of the crap I pull, I
> like your new style.

> In, out, watch for openings, try to play the
> bigger counts with the bigger bets only.

> I can't remember the last time I got glued
> to a seat and just played in to the night.

> Good luck.

Your probably correct, but let me be more specific.

When I have the occasion to play in my own name, (which is where I get smothered with comps) I play 2 hands of $100.00 each capping out at 2 hands of $1500.00 each. You can't imagine the heat at this level.

Min bet on the table is $200.00 max bet being $3000.00.

When playing cognito, (not caring about what they do or don't give me) i'm actually playing 2 hands of $25.00 each with a max bet of 2 hands of $1000.00 each.

If I explained it incorrectly, I apoligize.

When it comes to anything with numbers, I tend to do that .

Always remember i'm the lowest grade math guy in the underground. Which by the way, is where I mostly lean on you guys.

I use the KISS system and know exactly what moves to make, but can't explain to you why, because I really don't care about the whys.

Kind of like knowing that using KO with 6 decks doa, das at plus 4 I double on my 2 card total of nine against the dealer 2 showing.

I live by Don's (I nick named them) magical 18.
I couldn't care less about why I make those plays, only that it's the correct play.

I know that kind of simplifies it, but I just wanted you to understand my thought process.

Thanks for everything, I enjoy your posts.

Hollywood

[ES]

Don, you set me up for this one.

For those who are unaware, Passover and Succos are Jewish holidays. We are currently in the middle of Succos, also known as Tabernacles in English.