MM: Don, Can you help me with this?

[MM]

Hey Don,

I would like to know if you use camouflage? I was using heavy camouflage and it didn't seem to help me sometimes (with PB). I was betting 4 units off the top of the shoe periodically or almost every other shoe. I was playing double deck with a -.167 % disadvantage and spreading 1 - 16 with pen about 55 - 60 %. I think I had the advantage but ended up breaking even on those 7 quick sessions in 2 days.

My real question is: I lost 100 units in about 20 minutes or 3 - 6 shoes playing perfectly and giving up on camo. Would you know the probability of something like that happening? It scared the hell out of me and I walked out into the parking lot and didn't where I was or where I parked the car---- I was in such a daze. Keep in mind that before that 20 minutes, I was up about 180 units for the trip. This is the first time something crazy has happened. I did everything perfectly. Played double deck and even am going down to the half-deck divisor. (it was on same game as described above)

[Don Schlesinger]

> Hey Don,

> I would like to know if you use camouflage?

Yes, all the time.

> I was using heavy camouflage and it didn't
> seem to help me sometimes (with PB). I was
> betting 4 units off the top of the shoe
> periodically or almost every other shoe. I
> was playing double deck with a -.167 %
> disadvantage and spreading 1 - 16 with pen
> about 55 - 60 %.

Awfully big spread for DD. You know that, in BJA3, I write that 1-6 is just about all that will be tolerated at DD. 1-8 is stretching the outer limits. Your spread was too wide.

> I think I had the advantage
> but ended up breaking even on those 7 quick
> sessions in 2 days.

S**t happens!

> My real question is: I lost 100 units in
> about 20 minutes or 3-6 shoes playing
> perfectly and giving up on camo. Would you
> know the probability of something like that
> happening?

Given enough information, I could figure it out, but what's the point now? It happened, so you know it's possible! If you bet 16 units, split and then double each split, that's 64 units on a single hand. Do it again, and there's your 100 units, and then some.

> It scared the hell out of me and
> I walked out into the parking lot and didn't
> where I was or where I parked the car---- I
> was in such a daze. Keep in mind that before
> that 20 minutes, I was up about 180 units
> for the trip. This is the first time
> something crazy has happened. I did
> everything perfectly. Played double deck and
> even am going down to the half-deck divisor.
> (it was on same game as described above)

So, you now know that you can play perfectly and get massacred. Be thankful that it hasn't happened to you more frequently. If you keep playing, it will, unfortunately, be a regular occurrence. The simple fact is that, if you bet big, you will often lose big. You just can't eacape the variance.

Don

[MM]

Don,

Before playing much blackjack, I really couldn't fathom how much someone like you or anyone else could know about the game. After having quite a few run-ins with PB's, casino managers, security, etc. , I think I have gained much more respect for people that have been in the game for several years. I had no idea that casinos were run like communist Russia. I appreciate your contribution to the game of blackjack immensely and wish you would come out with a book called "Eluding Casino Surveillance" or something. On the drive home, (winning trip this time) I was thinking that a beginning blackjack player should probably read about 2 books on blackjack and about 4 books on casino surveillance.

The reason I was betting so big was because they were cutting the crap out of those double decks. Most of the time, it was at 50 % so I figure I'd rather be thrown out playing a winning game than stay and play a game that I couldn't possibly beat. I guess right now I am kind of kamikaze-style. But I'm learning, now, I sit next to the guy betting 8 blacks. I used to sit next to red chippers----ouch.

[Don Schlesinger]

> Before playing much blackjack, I really
> couldn't fathom how much someone like you or
> anyone else could know about the game. After
> having quite a few run-ins with PB's, casino
> managers, security, etc., I think I have
> gained much more respect for people that
> have been in the game for several years.

It's not an easy occupation/avocation. And, it's not getting any easier, I'm afraid.

> I had no idea that casinos were run like
> communist Russia. I appreciate your
> contribution to the game of blackjack
> immensely and wish you would come out with a
> book called "Eluding Casino
> Surveillance" or something. On the
> drive home, (winning trip this time) I was
> thinking that a beginning blackjack player
> should probably read about 2 books on
> blackjack and about 4 books on casino
> surveillance.

Yes, all so true. The problem with putting too much in a book about eluding casino surveillance is that a few casino bosses actually know how to read, and, eventually, like burglars, who buy all the latest alarm systems so that they can know how to disarm them, your information is used against you.

> The reason I was betting so big was because
> they were cutting the crap out of those
> double decks. Most of the time, it was at 50%
> so I figure I'd rather be thrown out
> playing a winning game than stay and play a
> game that I couldn't possibly beat.

The problem with that philosophy is when the information that they gather on you is spread around. Then, being thrown out of one place can actually snowball and cause you problems in many other venues.

> I guess
> right now I am kind of kamikaze-style. But
> I'm learning, now, I sit next to the guy
> betting 8 blacks. I used to sit next to red
> chippers----ouch.

There are many different approaches to this game, and some very high-stakes players advocate such an approach. It isn't my style and never will be, but then again, I have never played blackjack for a living.

Don

[MM]

[Sun Runner]

Yes they can .. and much to the chagrin of many a card player, they can read, write, add, subtract, and spot a 1:16 spread at DD a mile away.

If you start believing the standard company line that pit bosses and casino management are ignorant uneducated fools you are in for a needless bumpy (bumpier) ride.

You may not like the way they act, look, or smell but you better believe they have the ability to shut you down permenantly if they decide to. That alone demands repect on at least one plane.

Forgive me, I have not played much DD in my day, but spreading 1:16 with 50% pen, man, I think I'd have given the kamakazis better odds.

Oh, and about staggering into the parking lot, stunned, wondering where your car was and wondering what just happened .. welcome to the club.

Good luck.

[Don Schlesinger]

[MM]

> Forgive me, I have not played much DD in my
> day, but spreading 1:16 with 50% pen, man, I
> think I'd have given the kamakazis better
> odds.

I don't understand the line here. Are you saying a 1 - 16 spread is good or bad ?
Why is it that you criticize every word I write ? You stated on bj21.com that you have never been banned or trespassed. I find it hard to believe that if you have never experienced this that you are making much money at bj. I never intended this to become a flame war anyway.

[HOllywood]

> Hey Don,

> I would like to know if you use camouflage?
> I was using heavy camouflage and it didn't
> seem to help me sometimes (with PB). I was
> betting 4 units off the top of the shoe
> periodically or almost every other shoe. I
> was playing double deck with a -.167 %
> disadvantage and spreading 1 - 16 with pen
> about 55 - 60 %. I think I had the advantage
> but ended up breaking even on those 7 quick
> sessions in 2 days.

> My real question is: I lost 100 units in
> about 20 minutes or 3 - 6 shoes playing
> perfectly and giving up on camo. Would you
> know the probability of something like that
> happening? It scared the hell out of me and
> I walked out into the parking lot and didn't
> where I was or where I parked the car---- I
> was in such a daze. Keep in mind that before
> that 20 minutes, I was up about 180 units
> for the trip. This is the first time
> something crazy has happened. I did
> everything perfectly. Played double deck and
> even am going down to the half-deck divisor.
> (it was on same game as described above)

This will not be the first time or the last time this happens.

Just believe in the math and it will all come around.

I took hits where I got to the point where I thought the dealers were pulling the cards out of there sleeves.

In the old days, I stopped counting and started staring to see if it was really posible they were coming out of the shoe lol.

But I will tell you what cured me if it will help you.

I read the bible over and over (bible being BJ ATTACK in this conversation)
And I specifically read and reread and reread the chapter on EV and SD which is right in the beginning.

If you understand that concept, while it's happening to you you won't be happy but you will have a smile on your face. Because the MATH dictales your time will come.

Just like the BS person who can't do anything wrong and now the casino's time comes.

Bad swings used to get to me, but not anymore.

No matter how much I lose in a session, I go home and take out my book and show it as a debit for that night and thats it.

I wish there was more I could tell you.

But, going back a ways, I was on an incredible losing streak. But, I asked my fellow BJ buddies to post there worst experiences.

Well when I read those posts, I realized I was not alone, and as Hyman Roth said.
"this is the life we have chosen" and its quite common

Please just hang in read BJA and the circle comes back around.

If you are a counter and you know your trade. This is a fact my friend.

THEY CANT BEAT US.

WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK THEY THROW US ALL OUT.

Hollywood

[Sun Runner]

> I don't understand the line here. Are you
> saying a 1 - 16 spread is good or bad ?

At 50% pen DD? I'd say it's a bad way to play. So did Don S, by the way. Was he to hard to understand also? As I said, I'd give the kamakazi pilots better odds.

> Why is it that you criticize every word I write?

Honestly? I started to make up some politically correct response, but honestly? Because you have come across to me as a guy with either a bull-s**t story or a guy with more money than good sense looking for acceptance.

I think it was your "I feel like I've been given a dangerous weapon with no training how to use it" that really set me off.

Or the .. "Don, maybe I should play less and learn to read more of your book."

Ya think!

You asked me why -there it is.

But you know what, you may be neither -so let me apologize, right now, for doing so.

> You stated on bj21.com that you have
> never been banned or trespassed. I find it
> hard to believe that if you have never
> experienced this that you are making much
> money at bj.

Your right, I don't play anywhere near full time. If you want to define 'much money' I'd be glad to compare notes.

BTW -in the short amount of time I suspect you have been playing, if being banned or tresspassed is already a problem for you, you are probably not doing something right. That is not a flame -that is just two opinions back to back.

And further more, I don't have to be run over by a truck to know that it hurts. I do a pretty good job staying out of their way.

And last, I said that being barred or tresspassed is no red badge of courage or mark of a winner, and it's not. They tresspass plenty of losers along the way.

> I never intended this to become a flame war anyway.

Me neither man. And I can assure you, in the future, it won't be. You and I both pay to post here and you have the right learn all you can with out my getting in the way.

Have a good night.

[MM]

Sun Runner,

You sound angry man.

The only reason I am replying to you is because your comments both on bj21.com and on here made to me are always consistently rude. Don didn't say that playing double deck with 50 % pen was bad. He said a 1 - 16 spread wouldn't be tolerated. If you have CVCX, you can punch in a 1 - 30 spread on 50 % double deck and the same spread on a 6 deck both s17 and typical games with 70 % pen and see which is the better score. Surprise ! It's the double deck. Now do you see why I play double deck. I was up 4,500 dollars this week what were you up ? I walked away with 2000. How about you ?

I would appreciate you just not replying to my posts anymore. I hate to be like the casinos in this way but everytime you reply it is negative. I almost dread opening your posts now.

Yes, I do have more mathematical skills than common sense. You are right. I don't have good social skills and that is why I ask questions to Don and Hollywood about what is considered normal in casinos.

I apologize for that dumb post I made. I apologize to Don and anyone who read it. I was mad at that time. It was my first trespass and I didn't know if I had future with blackjack. Right now I am seeking other advantage plays so I can still make money with blackjack but not have my face out there so often.

[Sun Runner]

> You sound angry man.

Nope -just old.

A fair warning .. bail out now because since this is our last conversation together, I'll give it my best (or worst) shot.

> The only reason I am replying to you is
> because your comments both on bj21.com and
> on here made to me are always consistently
> rude.

This can certainly be our last conversation, with no hard feelings, but, one last thing ..

You post at bj21.com? No kidding. Mind letting me know under what handle so I can avoid further rudeness. I don't recall seeing 'MM' there. Ever.

> Don didn't say that playing double deck with 50 % pen was bad.

Neither did I.

> He said a 1 - 16 spread wouldn't be tolerated.

I heard him. 50% pen DD is OK. 1:16 spread is great. Couple them together and , well, I'd rather be in that Japanese Zero ...

> If you have CVCX, you can punch in a 1 - 30 spread on 50
> % double deck and the same spread on a 6
> deck both s17 and typical games with 70 %
> pen and see which is the better score.
> Surprise ! It's the double deck.

Maybe it is a surprise to you. Try a 1:100 spread on CVCX .. it looks really great too! Why, you'll be rich in no time.

> Now do you see why I play double deck.

At 1:16? No, I still don't.

> I was up 4,500 dollars this week what were you up? I walked away with 2000. How about you ?

Didn't play this week. BTW, I've never been 'up' $4,500 any week. And your point? Had I the same BR your flashing, I might had knocked your effort in the dirt. Zip up your pants, man, it ain't all about size. Like I said before, if you don't spend more time studying, these $4.5K weeks or $2K weeks or whatever it is won't last forever.

> I would appreciate you just not replying to my posts anymore.

As I said before -not a problem.

> I hate to be like the casinos in this way but everytime you reply
> it is negative. I almost dread opening your
> posts now.

Can I consider this my first barring? I mean, I kinda need to dress up my resume.

> Yes, I do have more mathematical skills than
> common sense. You are right. I don't have
> good social skills and that is why I ask
> questions to Don and Hollywood about what is
> considered normal in casinos.

Keep it up, no kidding, you will learn a lot. Don can teach it and Hollywood can play it -for real.

> I apologize for that dumb post I made. I
> apologize to Don and anyone who read it.

No need; don't start getting all mushy on me now.

> I was mad at that time. It was my first
> trespass and I didn't know if I had future
> with blackjack.

Maybe it's not me who has anger management issues.


> Right now I am seeking other
> advantage plays so I can still make money
> with blackjack but not have my face out
> there so often.

So often!? How long has your face been out there anyway? Guys have been playing for years, making big money, with the same face 'out there' every day. Geeez.

Why don't you really learn to play BJ, or something, before moving on to something else? I personally think you don't get the results you are looking for because you really don't know how to play that strong a game yet and your paranoia is totally mis-placed for your place on the learning curve.

You said you were spreading $25 to $400, I think, and came off the top with 4 units for camo? I'll go on record and say I don't think you need to do that. Take your own advice, read Don's book, and learn to play where you can (generally) darken the same door more than once .. and still win.

(For better or worse, that's the LAST advice you'll hear from me!)

I'll admit it; many things you say are incredulous to me .. so I'm out. I want you to have a good time coming here, posting, and learning. I'll keep my comments about your posts to myself.

It's all good.

What about your other handle though; I'm curious. Let me know, or I might have to 'check in' with you again.

Good luck.

[Ouchez]

> Nope -just old.

> A fair warning .. bail out now because since
> this is our last conversation together, I'll
> give it my best (or worst) shot.

> This can certainly be our last conversation,
> with no hard feelings, but, one last thing
> ..

> You post at bj21.com? No kidding. Mind
> letting me know under what handle so I can
> avoid further rudeness. I don't recall
> seeing 'MM' there. Ever.

> Neither did I.

> I heard him. 50% pen DD is OK. 1:16 spread
> is great. Couple them together and , well,
> I'd rather be in that Japanese Zero ...

> Maybe it is a surprise to you. Try a 1:100
> spread on CVCX .. it looks really great too!
> Why, you'll be rich in no time.

> At 1:16? No, I still don't.

> Didn't play this week. BTW, I've never been
> 'up' $4,500 any week. And your point? Had I
> the same BR your flashing, I might had
> knocked your effort in the dirt. Zip up your
> pants, man, it ain't all about size. Like I
> said before, if you don't spend more time
> studying, these $4.5K weeks or $2K weeks or
> whatever it is won't last forever.

> As I said before -not a problem.

> Can I consider this my first barring? I
> mean, I kinda need to dress up my resume.

> Keep it up, no kidding, you will learn a
> lot. Don can teach it and Hollywood can play
> it -for real.

> No need; don't start getting all mushy on me
> now.

> Maybe it's not me who has anger management
> issues.
>

> So often!? How long has your face been out
> there anyway? Guys have been playing for
> years, making big money, with the same face
> 'out there' every day. Geeez.

> Why don't you really learn to play BJ, or
> something, before moving on to something
> else? I personally think you don't get the
> results you are looking for because you
> really don't know how to play that strong a
> game yet and your paranoia is totally
> mis-placed for your place on the learning
> curve.

> You said you were spreading $25 to $400, I
> think, and came off the top with 4 units for
> camo? I'll go on record and say I don't
> think you need to do that. Take your own
> advice, read Don's book, and learn to play
> where you can (generally) darken the same
> door more than once .. and still win.

> (For better or worse, that's the LAST advice
> you'll hear from me!)

> I'll admit it; many things you say are
> incredulous to me .. so I'm out. I want you
> to have a good time coming here, posting,
> and learning. I'll keep my comments about
> your posts to myself.

> It's all good.

> What about your other handle though; I'm
> curious. Let me know, or I might have to
> 'check in' with you again.

> Good luck.

there with my *dearest of friends*, SWK.

You can really go for the jugular when you want, Esquire.

But I think MM means well and I would want the two of you to take a "Time Out" and then shake hands and make up, really. I don't want to see this type of negativity on this page, let's all work together. MM has said he may lack some social skills, we can deal with that, right?

Your friend,
Ouchez.