HOLLYWOOD: Has anyone ever heard of this?

[HOLLYWOOD]

I was playing in AC last night and although I was not involved in it, a big verbal altercation broke out between 2 guys at the table and and 2 pit boses. I felt the bosses were wrong and the players were correct. Tell me what you think.

Here goes.

There were 4 of us sitting at a table most of the night and the cards were running just terrible. The laws of SD were being exceptionally cruel.

Finally after several hours of play a woman comes over with only 2 green chips that were visable.
The shoe had just begun and she was playing. Not before very long the 2 chips were gone and she asked the pit boss for a marker. There was barely 1 deck dealth at this point. Anyway the game continued on. Mind you, this was a NO MID SHOE ENTRY game. Anyway not only did the count start to get juicy, but the cards were running hot in the players directions. For the first time you could hear a bit of excitment from the BS players. In the next hand played, first base gets a 20 shortstop and 2nd base get blackjacks and 3rd base gets an 11 doubles and gets a 10 for 21. Everyone is high fiveing each other, it was just that kind of thing. In the middle of all this the marker for the lady comes.
The pit boss lets her back in the game. Well these 2 guys at the table went nuts. They were screaming at the top of there lungs.
It turns out the casinos position is that if a person is in a shoe when it starts and if they run out of money and take a marker, they are allowed back into the shoe. No matter how many hands they missed.
Now I have had pit bosses mention to us players if it would be ok to let a person back in.
But never did I see a pit boss tell a table that a person is coming back in after missing 3/4 of a shoe. So I felt these guys have a point.
The pit boses were sarcastic to them and they were fast to say it's hotel policy.

Anyway the 2 guys got up and cashed out there chips while stil argueing.

I would just like to know if they ever saw another casino do this when it said no MID SHOE.

Thank you,

Hollyowod

[Norm Wattenberger]

I would say the pit was right. She did not enter the table mid-shoe. Besides, wherever the casino, I would hope not all of the old Vegas style is gone. She had an account at the casino. The pit can waive rules in favor of a client when they wish. Suppose you get a call or a friend shows up, should the casino not have the ability to allow you to waive off one hand? We may look at the casino as a place of business and the pit as concentration camp guards. But it is supposed to be a place of entertainment and the pit is supposed to make you feel like a celebrity.

BJStats

[Don Schlesinger]

Technically, there is a difference in the concepts of "no mid-shoe entry" and "once the shoe begins, if a player sits out a hand, he/she may not jump back into that same shoe."

That's precisely the confusion that went on in your game. The woman did not enter mid-shoe, but she did jump back into the shoe that she had rightfully begun at its inception.

The pit was right. And now, a strategy for all of us evolves:

Where no mid-shoe entry exists, play from the beginning with chips from your pocket -- no chips on the table. When the count gets bad, we "run out of money" and stop playing. When it gets good, we rummage in our other pocket(s) and miraculously find more chips! Or, of course, we take out another marker.

Wonder if the pit would buy it.

Don

[Norm Wattenberger]

Keeping a small number of chips on the table allows other options. If you have odd numbers of chips on the table, it allows you to make odd bets closer to optimal than full cover would normally allow without looking as much like a counter. You can appear as though you are just grabbing a hand full of chips of random denominations when betting. To get away with this, you need to have chips in your pocket. This can be done by rat-holing - but doing it in an obvious as opposed to surreptitious method. That is, when there are too many chips in front of you, make a point of picking up chips, counting them and putting them in your pocket for all to see. This makes you look a bit more like a problem gambler than an AP. It also allows you to make fractional unit bets at negative counts with less suspicion.

BJStats

[Bettie]

> Technically, there is a difference in the
> concepts of "no mid-shoe entry"
> and "once the shoe begins, if a player
> sits out a hand, he/she may not jump back
> into that same shoe."

Not in any of the casinos where I've tried this in Las Vegas. Of course, I wasn't sitting out a hand or two to take out a marker, which may be the difference here. The "rule" may be different casino to casino, but I was not given any slack when I tried to come back into any of the games I sat out.

Bettie

[HOLLYWOOD]

> Technically, there is a difference in the
> concepts of "no mid-shoe entry"
> and "once the shoe begins, if a player
> sits out a hand, he/she may not jump back
> into that same shoe."

> That's precisely the confusion that went on
> in your game. The woman did not enter
> mid-shoe, but she did jump back into the
> shoe that she had rightfully begun at its
> inception.

> The pit was right. And now, a strategy for
> all of us evolves:

> Where no mid-shoe entry exists, play from
> the beginning with chips from your pocket --
> no chips on the table. When the count gets
> bad, we "run out of money" and
> stop playing. When it gets good, we rummage
> in our other pocket(s) and miraculously find
> more chips! Or, of course, we take out
> another marker.

> Wonder if the pit would buy it.

> Don

Under every set of circumstances you look for an advantage. I'm still laughing.

But for the record I was sitting at a table and my wife came up to me for a second and I turned around and didn't put a chip up. By mistake the dealer went by me.
Well guess what? They made me wait until the shoe was over. I was not allowed back in. Even the dealer was acknowledgeing he made a mistake and it was stil a dead issue. The count sucked so I didn't really care. I just said "OK".

Hollywood

[Hollywood]

> I would say the pit was right. She did not
> enter the table mid-shoe. Besides, wherever
> the casino, I would hope not all of the old
> Vegas style is gone. She had an account at
> the casino. The pit can waive rules in favor
> of a client when they wish. Suppose you get
> a call or a friend shows up, should the
> casino not have the ability to allow you to
> waive off one hand? We may look at the
> casino as a place of business and the pit as
> concentration camp guards. But it is
> supposed to be a place of entertainment and
> the pit is supposed to make you feel like a
> celebrity.

A new twist. I made some inquiries last night regarding this no mid-shoe entry in AC.

I was told that according to the AC gaming commission, that if a casino posts no mid shoe entry, they are NOT ALLOWED to let a person back in under any circumstances.

Unless that casino specifically files something with the commission indicating their change to the law.

What's your take on that??????????????

Hollywood

[Johnny Bravo]

> I was told that according to the AC gaming
> commission, that if a casino posts no mid
> shoe entry, they are NOT ALLOWED to let a
> person back in under any circumstances.

> Unless that casino specifically files
> something with the commission indicating
> their change to the law.

> What's your take on that??????????????

Backrooming is illegal, confiscation of chips/cash by casinos is illegal, physicaly harming counters is illegal, holding you against your will when you have done nothing wrong is illegal. All of these things are illegal but that doesn't stop casinos from doing these things to advantage players. Ask J Morgan about illegal casino activity.

My take.....What you describe is normal casino behavior. They're all bastards Hollywood.

JB

[HOLLYWOOD]

> Backrooming is illegal, confiscation of
> chips/cash by casinos is illegal, physicaly
> harming counters is illegal, holding you
> against your will when you have done nothing
> wrong is illegal. All of these things are
> illegal but that doesn't stop casinos from
> doing these things to advantage players. Ask
> J Morgan about illegal casino activity.

> My take.....What you describe is normal
> casino behavior. They're all bastards
> Hollywood.

> JB

Thanks JB, you shedded a nice light on the whole thing. I particully enjoyed the bastard comment.
You couldn't be more right.
They take money from sick people, old people and stupid people. And they do it easily with no regret. And on top of all that, they come after us with a vengence. Go figure.

It's just plain old GREED.

Hollywood