HOLLYWOOD: QUESTION?

[HOLLYWOOD]

Not to bore you with this, but everyone knows I play strictly KO. I Play almost exclusively in AC.
6 decks, DAS, DOA split 3 times max etc.

Now according to KO guidelines, at -4 for the first time we increase to 2 units and and also do not hit hit 16 againt a dealer 10.
The next adjustment comes at +4 where we now don't hit 16 against dealer 9 and 15 against dealer 10.

A fellow counter was telling me the other day that at high + counts he does not take any cards that can bust him.

Has anyone every heard of this?

And from the MATH standpoint, is it effective?

He happens to be real good at his craft, so I thought I would like to get the opinion of the room and go back to him.

Regards,

Hollywood

[Don Schlesinger]

> A fellow counter was telling me the other
> day that at high + counts he does not take
> any cards that can bust him.

> Has anyone every heard of this?

Sure. Dopes do it all the time! :-) Imagine not hitting a 12 vs. a ten, because you might break. May as well just write the casino a check and not bother to play at all.

> And from the MATH standpoint, is it
> effective?

Certainly not. There is a standing index for many plays. Those indices go from the ones you mentioned all the way up to double-digit, rarely-if-ever-used indices. The latter are virtually useless, because of the rarity with which they come up.

> He happens to be real good at his craft, so
> I thought I would like to get the opinion of
> the room and go back to him.

He's probably not as good at his craft as you might imagine. :-)

Don

[Sun Runner]

> Not to bore you with this, but everyone
> knows I play strictly KO.

No .. not everyone is in the loop.

I have enjoyed reading your posts. You seem to have played a fair amount of BJ over a fair amount of time and appear to have been successful.

If you care to expound on any of the following, I would appreciate it.

You strictly play KO. Did you start playing a balanced count, and then switch?

You use KO against what I would assume are some of the most difficult shoes around -AC. (I have not played there.)

The up-shot of all this is, I suppose, is my desire to re-affirm for me persoanlly that KO can be used to win big.

I started using KO -with good success. I'm a low stakes player that can play under the radar pretty easy. I am therefore reluctant to "transfer" success at my level to success at the level I am working toward -presumably where you are now.

I have begun to believe (rightly or wrongly) that to play successfully for big stakes requires more than simply working BS hard and counting well.

Part of that belief has lead me to get comfortable with HILO simply so I could start to shuffle track.

But here you are, apparently successful, and I'm guessing don't shuffle track because you are playing KO.

I'm beginning to ramble. Hopefully you get the thrust of my post and will feel free to elaborate.

Thanks.

SR

[Don Schlesinger]

If they let you play, ANY valid point count will win money in the long run. And, K-O is a perfectly valid point count, equivalent to hi-lo for most circumstances.

That said, the "if they let you play" caveat has become more than just a casual phrase to be tossed around lightly. These days, straight card counting for long periods of time and, especially, for high stakes, has become very, very difficult.

Don

[Sun Runner]

> That said, the "if they let you
> play" caveat has become more than just
> a casual phrase to be tossed around lightly.

And therefore my musings.

From reading the posts, Hollywood seems to be a regular player. He played 2002 in AC 6D shoes and made, I believe he said, "a fortune." And he did it using KO.

From my relative limited experience, after good basic strategy play and a solid count system, I don't know how anybody plays without Wonging. Either in or out.

Next, since I assume the AC games are mostly face-up games with card readers, Hollywood can't [I generally hate the word can't; it's so encompassing] be reading the hole card or watching for bends.

In these conditions, it seems to me some form of ST'ing would be next on the hit list, but, again, he uses KO and that would make ST'ing only more difficult -no?

So I'm just generally interested that he made a fortune in AC using KO.

[HOLLYWOOD]

> No .. not everyone is in the loop.

> I have enjoyed reading your posts. You seem
> to have played a fair amount of BJ over a
> fair amount of time and appear to have been
> successful.

> If you care to expound on any of the
> following, I would appreciate it.

> You strictly play KO. Did you start playing
> a balanced count, and then switch?

> You use KO against what I would assume are
> some of the most difficult shoes around -AC.
> (I have not played there.)

> The up-shot of all this is, I suppose, is my
> desire to re-affirm for me persoanlly that
> KO can be used to win big.

> I started using KO -with good success. I'm a
> low stakes player that can play under the
> radar pretty easy. I am therefore reluctant
> to "transfer" success at my level
> to success at the level I am working toward
> -presumably where you are now.

> I have begun to believe (rightly or wrongly)
> that to play successfully for big stakes
> requires more than simply working BS hard
> and counting well.

> Part of that belief has lead me to get
> comfortable with HILO simply so I could
> start to shuffle track.

> But here you are, apparently successful, and
> I'm guessing don't shuffle track because you
> are playing KO.

> I'm beginning to ramble. Hopefully you get
> the thrust of my post and will feel free to
> elaborate.

> Thanks.

> SR

Well, to answer what I can of your questions, here goes.

It was not always like this.
Going back a several years ago I was the biggest BS loser you could find. Finally I was either going to give it up or take it to a whole new level. I decided I would try the new level.

Somebody said to me, "IF YOU AIN'T COUNTING, THEN YOUR GAMBLING".
I figured I would trying anything that would work.

Part of my problem, is when it comes to numbers i'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. So I began with wong and also tried a few other systems. Everything confused me, I just couldn't get it down. FOR ME, it was just to much to remember and it was not working for me.

After that, someone turned me on to Arnold which is how I came into the direction of Don.

I don't remember who in the room suggested I try KO. But, whoever it was changed my life.

I finally had a system I could understand and work with diligently.
But, what made the whole thing work, was this room.
Anytime I had a question I posted it, and I would recieve answers in hours that it would take a person LIKE ME weeks to research.
And, if a person gave you the wrong answer, 10 posters would step up to the plate and correct it. With that kind of response you learn quickly. So for me, KO was what I could best understand at my level of intelligence. I don't concern myself with the math, just the end result and how it effects my play.

A great example of this is in BJ ATTACK, where DON gives an entire explanation regarding 1 versus 2 hands, and when you should and should not go to 2 hands and the percentage you should increase your bet etc. But, I never concerned myself on how he gets to it, because I could never comprehend it anyway. So I go to the bottom line regarding what my play should be.

Don has done all the hard work for everyone. And he makes it easy for guys like me to win.
So to answer your question, I tried other systems and I had trouble with all of them until KO. There are better systems, but what good does it do a person, if they don't understand them.

I'm not that clever, so I use KO because I had trouble with the others.

And yes, I live near and go to AC 3 times a week.
I play an average of 16 to 20 hours of BJ a week.

To answer your next question, I don't know if KO can be used to win big money.
I win big numbers because I play big numbers. My minimum bet is $100.00 and my max bet is 2 hands of $750.00 each, if i'm at a table with other players.
If i'm playing head to head, I play only one hand and my max is lowered to $1000.00. With my minimum still at $100.00.

But, you must understand Risk of Ruin is a big big deal. I'm a heavily financed person and I have no opinions when I play. If I drop 15 thousand for the night, I simply go home and -out 15K. It's nothing but accounting for me, and I always know it will turn around no matter how bad it gets. WHY? because i'm a counter and because of Don, Arnold the Austons and Parkers of the room (along with many other), I know exactly what needs to be done. The math says, it is a certainty that it will turn.

The last question you are asking me is better asked of DON and the BIG BOYS IN HERE.

You see I didn't start little and work my way up and build up a bankroll. Even when I was a big loser(before I became a professional) I only played blackchips. My life operates as a blackchip guy even when i'm outside the matrix.

Also you're correct I don't shuffle track.

But, I never give advice in here, but I will do it now. Here is the formula to be successful at this.

1. Learn to count down a deck in 20 seconds

2. Have a good understanding of both SESSION BANKROLL AND RISK OF RUIN

3. Learn and study the most important of the indices. I personally find Dons 18 and a few more, more then adequate. Also, some of the more obvious obvious ones will get you barred, then what did you accomplish.

4. Learn what happens in the short term in BJ don't mean shit. Look at the big picture.

5. Don't be a pig. There is a certain amount of loss you must undertake in order to be successful and continue to play.

6. Learn patience.

7. THIS IS HE MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL. Follow what Don tells you without question. Keep BJ ATTACK by your bedside and re-read it constantly.

That book and what Don taught me in this room was the difference in success for me.

Also regarding playing for big stakes and smaller ones. It's just units, there is no differnce.
I would not even play at the high stakes table if they had 6 deck shoes in AC on the regular floor. When i'm not playing in AC (unusual)I always play at a smaller stakes table.
I play 100 units you play less. But, they are just units.

I hope some of this helped.

Regards,

Hollywood

[HOLLYWOOD]

> Well, to answer what I can of your
> questions, here goes.

> It was not always like this.
> Going back a several years ago I was the
> biggest BS loser you could find. Finally I
> was either going to give it up or take it to
> a whole new level. I decided I would try the
> new level.

> Somebody said to me, "IF YOU AIN'T
> COUNTING, THEN YOUR GAMBLING".
> I figured I would trying anything that would
> work.

> Part of my problem, is when it comes to
> numbers i'm not the sharpest knife in the
> drawer. So I began with wong and also tried
> a few other systems. Everything confused me,
> I just couldn't get it down. FOR ME, it was
> just to much to remember and it was not
> working for me.

> After that, someone turned me on to Arnold
> which is how I came into the direction of
> Don.

> I don't remember who in the room suggested I
> try KO. But, whoever it was changed my life.

> I finally had a system I could understand
> and work with diligently.
> But, what made the whole thing work, was
> this room.
> Anytime I had a question I posted it, and I
> would recieve answers in hours that it would
> take a person LIKE ME weeks to research.
> And, if a person gave you the wrong answer,
> 10 posters would step up to the plate and
> correct it. With that kind of response you
> learn quickly. So for me, KO was what I
> could best understand at my level of
> intelligence. I don't concern myself with
> the math, just the end result and how it
> effects my play.

> A great example of this is in BJ ATTACK,
> where DON gives an entire explanation
> regarding 1 versus 2 hands, and when you
> should and should not go to 2 hands and the
> percentage you should increase your bet etc.
> But, I never concerned myself on how he gets
> to it, because I could never comprehend it
> anyway. So I go to the bottom line regarding
> what my play should be.

> Don has done all the hard work for everyone.
> And he makes it easy for guys like me to
> win.
> So to answer your question, I tried other
> systems and I had trouble with all of them
> until KO. There are better systems, but what
> good does it do a person, if they don't
> understand them.

> I'm not that clever, so I use KO because I
> had trouble with the others.

> And yes, I live near and go to AC 3 times a
> week.
> I play an average of 16 to 20 hours of BJ a
> week.

> To answer your next question, I don't know
> if KO can be used to win big money.
> I win big numbers because I play big
> numbers. My minimum bet is $100.00 and my
> max bet is 2 hands of $750.00 each, if i'm
> at a table with other players.
> If i'm playing head to head, I play only one
> hand and my max is lowered to $1000.00. With
> my minimum still at $100.00.

> But, you must understand Risk of Ruin is a
> big big deal. I'm a heavily financed person
> and I have no opinions when I play. If I
> drop 15 thousand for the night, I simply go
> home and -out 15K. It's nothing but
> accounting for me, and I always know it will
> turn around no matter how bad it gets. WHY?
> because i'm a counter and because of Don,
> Arnold the Austons and Parkers of the room
> (along with many other), I know exactly what
> needs to be done. The math says, it is a
> certainty that it will turn.

> The last question you are asking me is
> better asked of DON and the BIG BOYS IN
> HERE.

> You see I didn't start little and work my
> way up and build up a bankroll. Even when I
> was a big loser(before I became a
> professional) I only played blackchips. My
> life operates as a blackchip guy even when
> i'm outside the matrix.

> Also you're correct I don't shuffle track.

> But, I never give advice in here, but I will
> do it now. Here is the formula to be
> successful at this.

> 1. Learn to count down a deck in 20 seconds

> 2. Have a good understanding of both SESSION
> BANKROLL AND RISK OF RUIN

> 3. Learn and study the most important of the
> indices. I personally find Dons 18 and a few
> more, more then adequate. Also, some of the
> more obvious obvious ones will get you
> barred, then what did you accomplish.

> 4. Learn what happens in the short term in
> BJ don't mean shit. Look at the big picture.

> 5. Don't be a pig. There is a certain amount
> of loss you must undertake in order to be
> successful and continue to play.

> 6. Learn patience.

> 7. THIS IS HE MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL. Follow
> what Don tells you without question. Keep BJ
> ATTACK by your bedside and re-read it
> constantly.

> That book and what Don taught me in this
> room was the difference in success for me.

> Also regarding playing for big stakes and
> smaller ones. It's just units, there is no
> differnce.
> I would not even play at the high stakes
> table if they had 6 deck shoes in AC on the
> regular floor. When i'm not playing in AC
> (unusual)I always play at a smaller stakes
> table.
> I play 100 units you play less. But, they
> are just units.

> I hope some of this helped.

> Regards,

> Hollywood

When I indicated I made a fortune in AC, you must understand that I was also counting a very serious amount of comps that come your way when you are a high stakes player.
Actually my comps exceed my winnings for 2002. Although my winnings were substantial, the comps were incredible.
That was one of the reasons I got so upset when I got busted counting.

Now that being said, I played my first 2 sessions in cognito since then.
I also now play alot less conservatively, meaning the other night with a $500.00 bet on the table I doubled on ACE 9 against the dealer 6.
I would not make that play when they were rating me. (for fear I would be looked at)
So now that the comps are gone, I believe I will make more money playing.
Regards,

Hollywood

[Sun Runner]

.. for the time, the effort, and the honesty.

One last thing, you play 6D AC (assumed);

If I understand you properly, you are spreading 1:20 if the table is full and 1:10 if heads up.

The later seems a little conservative for 6D, the former a little radical.

You consistently (LT) net positive units at both levels?

Thanks again, and good luck to you.

SR

[HOLLYWOOD]

> .. for the time, the effort, and the
> honesty.

> One last thing, you play 6D AC (assumed);

> If I understand you properly, you are
> spreading 1:20 if the table is full and 1:10
> if heads up.

> The later seems a little conservative for
> 6D, the former a little radical.

> You consistently (LT) net positive units at
> both levels?

> Thanks again, and good luck to you.

> SR

I spread 1 to 10 if playing alone and 1 to 15 if playing with others. that would be 2 hands at $750.00 per hand.

I only go to 2 hands to get more money out on the table.

Something interesting is this. When I got busted a few weeks ago I was spreading 20 times.
I was sitting at a 6 deck $25.00 table and my max bet was $500.00.
On that same occasion, I doubled on a soft 19 and the dealer YELLED OUT "Doubling 19".

I think my daughter heard him, and she was away at college at the time.

I find that spread a bit agressive when your a regular player and don't have access to alot of different games.
To me that 20 to 1 stuff is like doubling down on a soft 20 or splitting tens. Even the most moronic of the pit crews take notice of that stuff.
It took me a long time to realize something that DON taught me.
There is a certain amount of money you have to give up to be a successful counter.

So I try and stay away from the plays that will have me arrested.

Good luck

Hollywood

[ghost]

i play ko myself and consider myself a long term winner now. although when i play 8 decks i almost always lose so i shy away from 8 decks. Whats your experience with 8 decks. i use the ko book for risk of ruin kelly betting ... any input

ghost

[Sun Runner]

> I spread 1 to 10 if playing alone and 1 to
> 15 if playing with others. that would be 2
> hands at $750.00 per hand.

I generally go by the axiom (axiom?) that if I spread to two hands, the combined total of my two hands should requal 75% of my single hand wager; hence my calling your high bet an equivalent 20:1 wager.

Good luck.

SR

[Don Schlesinger]

> I generally go by the axiom (axiom?) that if
> I spread to two hands, the combined total of
> my two hands should requal 75% of my single
> hand wager.

Bad mistake! The combined total of the two hands should equal 150% of the single-hand wager. Each of the two wagers should equal 75% of the one-hand wager.

Careful!!

Don

[Pimp the Great]

Are you "playing-all" or backcounting? What is the penetration? The wrong answer to these questions can make your 8-deck game worth pennies an hour at best. I don't feel that the KO book really addresses this sufficiently. In fact, it tends to give the incorrect impression that it contains "all you need to know." I highly recommend BJA for a detailed analysis of the 8-deck game.