von Clausewitz: Hi-Opt II or Revere Point Count

[von Clausewitz]

I am thinking of upgrading to a level 2 system. I am a low stakes player. In Las Vegas, I play mostly 6-deck games at MGM (das, ls, s17, rsa) and the rest 1-deck at Binion's. In Atlantic City, I play the 8-deck monsters. I currently play High-Low. If I upgrade, then should I upgrade to Hi-Opt II or to Revere Point Count? If Hi-Opt, then how important is the ace side count? Thanks in advance.

[Don Schlesinger]

> If I upgrade, then should I upgrade to
> Hi-Opt II or to Revere Point Count?

Hi-Opt II will outperform virtually any other count you might use.

> If Hi-Opt, then how important is the ace side
> count?

Important enough such that, if you don't plan on using it, then don't bother with that count.

Don

[Mister M]

> Hi-Opt II will outperform virtually any
> other count you might use.

Dear Don
Is it not correct to say the HI-OPT II WILL outperform any other count if used correctly?.
If the previous poster wants to use different counts for 6d and sd how about the ZEN for shoes and AOII for sd.Are the indices for the two counts not almost identical?.

[Don Schlesinger]

> Is it not correct to say the HI-OPT II WILL
> outperform any other count if used
> correctly?

Hard to know. Of the ones I studied, yes. But, is there some level god-knows-what, ridiculously complicated count that could, conceivably, do better if the user had the mind to apply it successfully? So, I covered my ass and said "virtually"! :-)

> If the previous poster wants to use
> different counts for 6d and sd how about the
> ZEN for shoes and AOII for sd. Are the
> indices for the two counts not almost
> identical?

Well, AOII needs a side of aces, also, so I'm not sure you gain much on that account. Zen, and the RPC, as Halves, are all wonderful for shoes and easier to use than Hi Opt II, but that doesn't mean they are equal in performance.

There is always give and take and compromise in deciding these things.

Don

[von Clausewitz]

If I am not going to side count aces, then should I go with RPC, rather than Hi-Opt II, or, should I use Zen, rather than RPC? Again, thanks in advance.

[Mister M]

Dear Don
I recently switched to Zen from AOII for anything greater than dd.if the poster decided to use zen for shoes and AOII for hand held would not the same indices apply for both counts/.
I would most certainly use an ace neutral count for sd or dd however.Have you any additional findings re ; count scores to add to BJA3 or do the comparisons in BJA2 still apply?.

[Don Schlesinger]

> Dear Don
> I recently switched to Zen from AOII for
> anything greater than dd.if the poster
> decided to use zen for shoes and AOII for
> hand held would not the same indices apply
> for both counts/.

I'd be surprsied to learn that they're identical.

> I would most certainly use an ace neutral
> count for sd or dd however.Have you any
> additional findings re ; count scores to add
> to BJA3 or do the comparisons in BJA2 still
> apply?.

Everything in BJA2 re SCORE is perfectly fine, but there could always be further comparisons or new counts added to the mix.

Don

[Don Schlesinger]

> If I am not going to side count aces, then
> should I go with RPC, rather than Hi-Opt II,
> or, should I use Zen, rather than RPC?
> Again, thanks in advance.

See the SCORE article for Zen vs. RPC; they're virtually identical. I don't know if Hi-Opt II will outperform these counts in shoe games, without a side of aces. It might be close.

Don

[Mister M]

If you have no intention of ace side - counting then why would you even consider HI-OPT II?.
chose the system and play the system the intended method or not at all.
IMHO if shoes are your only game then perhaps primary consideration should be balanced v unbalanced.

[Mister M]

> I'd be surprsied to learn that they're
> identical.
Perhaps someone brilliant such as Cacarulo/Karel can let me know which indices are NOT identical.
I have been Truncating with sba so the point around zero may differ if one rounds or floors but I am not aware if, for example to "be off by one " impacts EV in any way.
It would make sense that the impact would be greater in sd / dd but can this be confirmed?.
I trucate in play also so perhaps I should be using the round / round approach.

[George C.]

OK, I play red mostly shoe games. I wouldn't even think about going to a multi-level count. Hi-Lo or KO is fine.

I finally get to the black chip level. I would consieder A011 or HiOpt2 but only with a side of aces. Otherwise, Zen or RPC. For unbalanced, my UBZ2.

I also know that exploiting a casino's weakness is far more important than the subtle differences between counts.

Hope this helps,

George

[George C.]