onetoomany: Why don't the casinos just eliminate

[fat chris]

All the talk about slot machines has reminded me of an article I read a about a year ago. A man in New Jersey was attempting to study slot machine payouts at Atlantic City, and after testing numerous machines on several days he concluded that the cheap slots would allow the player to win more than normal the first few "pulls". As the number of credits per pull increased, winning became more requent. He also said that by winning a few times in a row, then cashing out, then repeating the process he was able to make a small profit over time.

Has anybody heard this story or anything similar? If so, is this legal?

Also, some casinos list slot pay-out odds as 2:1 for a 1 unit gain and 1:1 for a push. These valuse are in fact incorrect (1:1 would be a one unit gain, not a push). Does the slot consider the coin they "return" to the player that was used to make their origional bet to be "payout?" Is the returning of money in this way factored into the percentage payout that casinos display?

[bigplayer]

in the manner your friend suggests. The slot payouts are not listed as x To 1 but instead as x FOR 1. Returning your bet is part of the return.

[Parker]

> All the talk about slot machines has
> reminded me of an article I read a about a
> year ago. A man in New Jersey was attempting
> to study slot machine payouts at Atlantic
> City, and after testing numerous machines on
> several days he concluded that the cheap
> slots would allow the player to win more
> than normal the first few "pulls".
> As the number of credits per pull increased,
> winning became more requent. He also said
> that by winning a few times in a row, then
> cashing out, then repeating the process he
> was able to make a small profit over time.

> Has anybody heard this story or anything
> similar? If so, is this legal?

Sure it's legal. It just doesn't work. There are many myths and superstitions surrounding slot machines, and this is merely more of the same.

It is impossible to gain any meaningful data on slots from observing them for a few days, just as it is impossible to draw any conclusions from blackjack play based on a few hours at the tables. The sample is too small and variance is too high.

All modern slot machines are controlled by a random number generator that generates thousands of random numbers every second that the machine is powered up.

When you pull the lever (or hit the button - it makes no difference at all) whatever number pops out at that exact instant determines what, if anything, you win. It is completely random - the odds are exactly the same regardless of what the machine has done on the last few spins.

The payout percentages are set at the factory when the machine is manufactured and cannot be easily changed by the casino.

> Also, some casinos list slot pay-out odds as
> 2:1 for a 1 unit gain and 1:1 for a push.
> These valuse are in fact incorrect (1:1
> would be a one unit gain, not a push). Does
> the slot consider the coin they
> "return" to the player that was
> used to make their origional bet to be
> "payout?" Is the returning of
> money in this way factored into the
> percentage payout that casinos display?

Yes. It is just terminology. When a bet is said to pay "2 to 1" (commonly written as 2:1), it is implicit that you keep your original bet. When a slot says it pays "2 for 1" it means that your original bet is forfeited, regardless of the outcome.

Casinos love slots because they cannot be beaten, do not call in sick, and do not ask for raises or overtime pay.

[SOTSOG]

This method only works on Tuesdays and alternate Wednesdays. Most slots play occurs on weekends, so it doesn't apply.

[AdvantageRay]

..illegal, but, (In another life) I worked for one casino that did switch the chips that controlled the long run expectation of the game. Now, these chips had to be tested and approved by the gaming commission, and it couldnt drastically alter the win %, no more then by a point at most, but it has been done. Also, the chips could not be changed at a moments notice, and of course the slot machines could not be controlled to a short term win %, this is all long term win % over a large number of numbers generated. Whether or not thats legal, I dont know, but it does happen...
D

[cherry]

just three words:
piggy banking slots

[cherry]

> All modern slot machines are controlled by a
> random number generator that generates
> thousands of random numbers every second
> that the machine is powered up.

except for the new Class II machines:
http://tinyurl.com/34fa3

[Parker]

> except for the new Class II machines:
> http://tinyurl.com/34fa3

Nothing new about these. California Indian casinos were full of them prior to Prop 1A passing in 2000, which legalized "real" slot machines.

The CA Tribes argued that a class II slot machine was not really a slot machine at all. I tend to agree. Of course, Prop 1A made the whole matter moot, at least in California.

All the Class II devices in CA casinos have been replaced with real slots identical to those found in Las Vegas, etc.

[cherry]

nothing new?
from the cited article:

"IGT, which is already showing Class II machines at trade shows, expects to transform about 40 of its slot machines into Class II versions by mid-2004, UBS Warburg gaming analyst Robin Farley wrote in a research note. The company anticipates testing these games in Oklahoma and California by mid-April, she said. Potential markets also include Washington, Florida and Alabama, she said.

The National Indian Gaming Commission, the federal agency that regulates tribal casinos, is developing a national technical standard for Class II games that is expected sometime this year. The commission was forging ahead on a standard without waiting for any court decision on the matter.

Other states that offer both kinds of machines are expected to see an increase in Class II devices in tribal casinos, they say.

"In certain states like California, where the number of Class III devices are limited (by state compacts), we would anticipate casino expansion with Class II devices," Merrill Lynch casino analyst David Anders wrote in a research note.
"

> Nothing new about these. California Indian
> casinos were full of them prior to Prop 1A
> passing in 2000, which legalized
> "real" slot machines.

> The CA Tribes argued that a class II slot
> machine was not really a slot machine at
> all. I tend to agree. Of course, Prop 1A
> made the whole matter moot, at least in
> California.

> All the Class II devices in CA casinos have
> been replaced with real slots identical to
> those found in Las Vegas, etc.

[Parker]

They would be new to IGT and other established slot machine makers, but they are not new.

Nevada gaming law precludes companies doing business in Nevada from doing anything of questionable legality in other states. In other words, during the period when the legal status of the CA casinos was uncertain (pre-prop 1A), any company selling machines to a CA casino risked losing the ability to do business in Nevada - not a risk that IGT, Bally, or any of the established slot companies were willing to take.

It's also silly to suggest that there will be a market for these things in CA, since the 2000 slot/casino limit is about to go out the window.

[cherry]

> They would be new to IGT and other
> established slot machine makers, but they
> are not new.

An IGT Double Diamond Class II machine is new, and other models are to follow. A Class II MG/MD video poker model wouldn't surprise me either.

Of course the casinos will install Class II machines, as long as most people don't know what's going on, they are better for the casinos since they take the guess work out of it.

[BUZZO]

Seems people are overlooking the expenses of a casino BJ table. Not just paying the dealers and pit bosses,table games manager, security, cards,
licence fees, taxes, share of utilities for floor space, etc. And in places like Colorado with a $5 bet limit BJ tables are usually a courtesy more than a profit maker. Every time a new casino manager arrives, the dealers hold their breath to see how many if not all tables will be removed. The Riviera has a single deck game, dealer stands on 17, split up to 4 times except on Aces, double down after split. NO WAY can they make money. And to beat it all I can always get a seat even on weekends after a short wait of 5 or 10 minutes LOL
The ploppes walk right by it to play againt a 6 deck shoes. Until a month ago you could get comped a meal for a couple of hours play too.
Now need 900 points, at 100 points per hour.

[Parker]

> The Riviera
> has a single deck game, dealer stands on 17,
> split up to 4 times except on Aces, double
> down after split. NO WAY can they make
> money. And to beat it all I can always get a
> seat even on weekends after a short wait of
> 5 or 10 minutes LOL
> The ploppes walk right by it to play againt
> a 6 deck shoes. Until a month ago you could
> get comped a meal for a couple of hours play
> too.
> Now need 900 points, at 100 points per hour.

Um, that single deck game at the Riviera has a 6:5 blackjack payout, which means that it has over twice the house advantage of the shoe games. The casino is making all kinds of money at that game. The "ploppies" are making the intelligent choice. Oh, and they hit S17, too.