scobee 1: Sims, software, and computational analysis

[scobee 1]

First of all I am a Macophile... have been since '84 and that awesome Superbowl commercial. So all the references everyone makes regarding BJRM, CV, CVCX, BCA, et al just make me want to ask, "Is that NYSE or NASDAQ?" Now that I am becoming computer literate with the rest of the world I would like to ask the Windows cognescenti about software for blackjack. I like my 'Blackjack Deluxe' but it only allows me a few default casino rules, choice of # of players,some training drills, and usage of several counting systems in my simulated play. It has not changed in the last four years and certainly has no way to plug in different rules for different casinos.... or the effects conditions can have on evaluating and finding a good game. It was a good place to start but now I have questions it cannot answer.

What I would like to do is start a thread about the utility and differentiation among the main software programs.. the ones available from RGE, BJ21, and Qfit. If there are others I have missed that would be interesting, too. Who knows, there may even be a Macintosh program or two out there I am not aware of. At this point I am interested in a better practice vehicle and a way to SCORE casinos and strategies I might use in these chosen casinos. I am not really looking to develop new systems, but I feel like I need to get my hands dirty with the statistics so I can make some decisions based on my own custom parameters and research. I am especially interested in risk analysis and betting strategies....

I am not trying to re-invent the wheel. It is the high quality and comprehensive quantity of the works of Thorpe, Griffin, Wong, Snyder, and of course, Schlesinger, that inspire me to want to know what it is like to make comparisions and mimic the research that changed the way we look at this game.

Okay, so the truth is I am sick of ET Fan asking me if I have run the sims yet for some off the wall change of betting policy I want to try..... :-)

Thanks for whatever help you may offer... I guess I am looking to find out why CV 2.1 and BJRM.... and what exactly each program offers .. If this is hopelessly general just let me know. From my perspective it looks like there are nearly a dozen applications out there and I haven't a clue which one does what.... and this is not even taking under consideration shuffle tracking. If you have a personal preference or gripe, please include this also.

[Parker]

Okay, I'll start off with a few comments.

There are essentially two types of programs of interest to advantage players: Practice programs and research tools, primarily simulators.

Practice programs allow one to hone his/her counting and playing skills in front of a computer, without risking any money. Most attempt to mimic actual casino play, with varying degrees of realism. Some even provide background music, and cocktail waitresses asking if you'd like anything. All the good ones allow you to enter your counting system and bet ramp, and can be set to let you know if you make a mistake in playing, counting, or betting.

The Rolls Royce of practice programs is Casino Verite, by Qfit. Stunning 3D graphics provide a degree of realism unmatched by any other software. Other good programs are Blackjack 6-7-8 and SmartCards.

Simulators simply allow the user to set up a counting system and game conditions, and they play several million (or billion) hands in a short periond of time. Some can be set to generate indices. The industry standard here is SBA (Statistical Blackjack Analyser) by Karel Janecek. The new products (CVCX and CVData) from Qfit also look very exciting.

Blackjack 6-7-8 is actually a package including both a simulator and a practice program at an exceptionally reasonable price.

BJRM2000 by John Auston is a little different. It is actually a user-friendly interface that looks at a package of pre-run simulations in a variety of useful ways, allowing one to quickly compute SCORE, ROR, optimal bet ramp, and potential earnings. Sadly, it is presently off the market.

[scobee 1]

Thanks, RP, this is exactly what I was searching for.

Although the BJRM 2000 is off market, it is still advertised here at RGE. Does this mean there are still some old shrink-wrapped copies to be had, or is this just wishful thinking? It sounds as if this application allows all the analyses you could ever want, although a comparison with SBA as to the finer points of entry would be helpful. If I wanted to buy just one program for simulations and research, which would you recommend? Considering the lifetime value of such software, price point would be of secondary importance.

As always, your insightful and concise reports are greatly appreciated. I have no idea how you manage to post such valuable information so prolifically, but I do admire the magic.

[Don Schlesinger]

> Thanks, RP, this is exactly what I was
> searching for.

> Although the BJRM 2000 is off market, it is
> still advertised here at RGE. Does this mean
> there are still some old shrink-wrapped
> copies to be had, or is this just wishful
> thinking? It sounds as if this application
> allows all the analyses you could ever want,
> although a comparison with SBA as to the
> finer points of entry would be helpful. If I
> wanted to buy just one program for
> simulations and research, which would you
> recommend? Considering the lifetime value of
> such software, price point would be of
> secondary importance.

> As always, your insightful and concise
> reports are greatly appreciated. I have no
> idea how you manage to post such valuable
> information so prolifically, but I do admire
> the magic.
BJRM is not a simulator, per se, in that it has canned sims that correspond to the sims from Chapter 10 of BJA, but for many, many count systems.

SBA can sim anything you ask it to, which makes it more flexible. Finally, CVCX and CVData may do more than both!

Don

[mister m]

Parker,
Like Scobee I am not sure which simulator to purchase.Please explain the differences between CVCX and SBA and which ONE would you chose and why?

[Parker]

> Parker,
> Like Scobee I am not sure which simulator to
> purchase.Please explain the differences
> between CVCX and SBA and which ONE would you
> chose and why?

You really know how to put a guy on the spot here!

I have met Hal Marcus (Blackjack 6-7-8) and have had extensive e-mail conversations with Norm Wattenberger (Qfit - CVCX, Casino Verite, etc), Karel Janecek (SBA), and John Auston (BJRM2000), so I consider all of these gentlemen to be my friends.

Furthermore, the advantage player community owes all of these guys a huge debt of gratitude. They have provided us with some really outstanding tools, yet due to the narrow nature of the market for these products, it is unlikely that they will ever receive any significant profit from them.

These gentlemen are proud of their products (and rightfully so) and can be forgiven for sometimes taking a paternalistic attitude torward them. Criticism of their products may be met with all the cold objectivity of a father reacting to criticism of his child! :-)

I must confess that I only have the demo versions of the two products in question, and I have spent a limited amount of time playing with them.

Personally, I have found that John Auston's Blackjack Risk Manager 2000, with its pre-run simulations and user-friendly interface, along with my dog-eared copy of Blackjack Attack, 2nd ed., have been adequate for answering most of my own questions that might require running a sim. Alas, this nifty little product is not presently available. And of course, CVCX was not available a couple of years ago when I purchased BJRM2000

SBA was used extensively in the researh for Blackjack Attack, and was used to generate the sims used by BJRM2000

CVCX is a full-blown simulator in its own right, and was specifically designed to produce results in the user-friendly format of Chapter 10 of Blackjack Attack. In fact, the "CX" stands for "Chapter 10."

SBA is capable of generating indices, both EV-maximizing and risk-averse.

CVCX is faster than SBA, and also allows the user to change various parameters in the sim (rules, penetration, etc) without having to re-run the sim.

These are both excellent products! I cannot emphasize this enough. It would be nice if we could all just go out and buy all of them, if for no other reason than to express our gratitude to the developers.

I should also point out that both developers provide outstanding support for their products. If you experience any problems, help is just an e-mail away.

In case you haven't already figured it out, I am not about to declare one product as "best." Both are outstanding, and either is probably capable of solving your questions requiring simulations. So, which one is best for you boils down to mostly a matter of your specific needs and personal preferences.

Fortunately, both developers have made this easy for you. You can download free demo versions of each product from their respective websites, play with them to your heart's content, e-mail the developers if you have any questions, and make your own decision.

Websites (listed in alphabetical order):

www.qfit.com (CVCX, CVData, Casino Verite)

www.sba21.com (SBA)

Whew. :-)

[scobee 1]

Parker, this seems to me a perfect example of what 'Parker's Picks' could offer to the open forum readers. With just a little consolidation and very minor editing, I think this post could be archived as your Premier Parker Pick.

Again, thanks for the flawless response to my questions about software.... you are a diplomat and a diva!

Any timetable on those preference default questions? :-)

> You really know how to put a guy on the spot
> here!

> I have met Hal Marcus ( Blackjack 6-7-8 )
> and have had extensive e-mail conversations
> with Norm Wattenberger (Qfit - CVCX, Casino
> Verite, etc), Karel Janecek ( SBA ), and
> John Auston ( BJRM2000 ), so I consider all
> of these gentlemen to be my friends.

> Furthermore, the advantage player community
> owes all of these guys a huge debt of
> gratitude. They have provided us with some
> really outstanding tools, yet due to the
> narrow nature of the market for these
> products, it is unlikely that they will ever
> receive any significant profit from them.

> These gentlemen are proud of their products
> (and rightfully so) and can be forgiven for
> sometimes taking a paternalistic attitude
> torward them. Criticism of their products
> may be met with all the cold objectivity of
> a father reacting to criticism of his child!
> :-)

> I must confess that I only have the demo
> versions of the two products in question,
> and I have spent a limited amount of time
> playing with them.

> Personally, I have found that John Auston's
> Blackjack Risk Manager 2000, with its
> pre-run simulations and user-friendly
> interface, along with my dog-eared copy of
> Blackjack Attack, 2nd ed., have been
> adequate for answering most of my own
> questions that might require running a sim.
> Alas, this nifty little product is not
> presently available. And of course, CVCX
> was not available a couple of years ago when
> I purchased BJRM2000 SBA was used
> extensively in the researh for Blackjack
> Attack, and was used to generate the sims
> used by BJRM2000 CVCX is a full-blown
> simulator in its own right, and was
> specifically designed to produce results in
> the user-friendly format of Chapter 10 of
> Blackjack Attack. In fact, the
> "CX" stands for "Chapter
> 10."

> SBA is capable of generating indices, both
> EV-maximizing and risk-averse.

> CVCX is faster than SBA, and also allows the
> user to change various parameters in the sim
> (rules, penetration, etc) without having to
> re-run the sim.

> These are both excellent products! I
> cannot emphasize this enough. It would be
> nice if we could all just go out and buy all
> of them, if for no other reason than to
> express our gratitude to the developers.

> I should also point out that both developers
> provide outstanding support for their
> products. If you experience any problems,
> help is just an e-mail away.

> In case you haven't already figured it out,
> I am not about to declare one product as
> "best." Both are outstanding, and
> either is probably capable of solving your
> questions requiring simulations. So, which
> one is best for you boils down to mostly a
> matter of your specific needs and personal
> preferences.

> Fortunately, both developers have made this
> easy for you. You can download free demo
> versions of each product from their
> respective websites, play with them to your
> heart's content, e-mail the developers if
> you have any questions, and make your own
> decision.

> Websites (listed in alphabetical order):

> www.qfit.com (CVCX, CVData, Casino Verite)

> www.sba21.com (SBA)

> Whew. :-)

[Parker]

> Parker, this seems to me a perfect example
> of what 'Parker's Picks' could offer to the
> open forum readers. With just a little
> consolidation and very minor editing, I
> think this post could be archived as your
> Premier Parker Pick.

> Again, thanks for the flawless response to
> my questions about software.... you are a
> diplomat and a diva!

> Any timetable on those preference default
> questions? :-)

Thanks for the compliments . . . I think. I have been called a lot of things in the course of my life, but this is the first time to my recollection that I have ever been called a "diva." :-)

As for the preferences, it looks like we will probably leave the quoted text and "Re:" subject line as they are. As I stated before, I don't care for the subject line, but I seem to be in the minority, so we'll leave it alone.

No one posted any violent objection to clearing all the cookies, so we will probably do that at some point this week. If you come to the site and it does not greet you by name or remember your last visit, then we have done it.

As always, your input is greatly appreciated.

[scobee 1]

> Thanks for the compliments . . . I think. I
> have been called a lot of things in the
> course of my life, but this is the first
> time to my recollection that I have ever
> been called a "diva." :-)

In the musical theater world (that would be opera and Broadway musical comedy) "Diva" is descriptive of someone who carries the show on their back through the enormous talent that makes them unique and able to draw audiences by name recognition alone. In opera it is not unusual for a production to fly in a "Diva" to star at a moment's notice, since the "Diva" will have the experience, knowledge, and vocal ability to step in front of the footlights without rehearsal or special coaching and carry the day with a transcendental (or at least professional) performance. These international stars are always paid great sums of money and stay all expenses paid at the finest hotels in the great cities of the world.

In musical theatre, a "Diva" would have her (excuse the gender bending, no affront intended) name above the title of the show and have a lavish private dressing room. The "Diva" would be whisked from hotel to the theatre and back in a private limousine, and would be allowed perks above and beyond mere stars or directors.

You may be confusing this definition with the more commonplace usage of "difficult, demanding, petulant and abusive to all" that has infiltrated the vernacular due to people like Diana Ross, Whitney Houston, and others believing their own publicity shills that they are special beyond reproach. This was the farthest thing from my mind when I nominated you for 'Diva-dom.' Neither was it my intention to foist a feminine tiara upon your presumably manly countenance.

I hope this clears things up for you. If this is not an appropriate post, I have once again entered the requisite password since each time I post I am required to type in my name, e-mail address and password no matter how many times I try to teach this forum's cookies who I am, and yes it is just 'scobee 1' returning again for more wisdom and friendly repartee.'

regards,

scobee

[Mister M]

Parker,
You are not only a man of honesty but one of loyalty also.Thanks for the great answer.