YaleMoto: California Back Offs

[YaleMoto]

Has anyone been backed off in California? I have been playing one casino in Cal. for over 200 hours in the last year spreading 1-15 in double deck, getting fully comped, and have not been backed off. I have been backed off in LV. I wonder what the Indian policy and practice is with counters - especially in Cal.

I posted this issue on this site several months ago and did not get much of a response. Any thoughts?

[Jackie Chiles]

YaleMoto:

If you have been playing at a double deck game for 200 hours in the last year at the same casino AND you are using a 1 - 15 bet spread AND you are still getting comped there are only two scenarios that seem logical:

(1) This particular casino has utterly awful people watching the games. I would love to know where this place is because I spend on playing in (southern) California this summer.

(2) The casino does not see you as a threat, and evidently wants you to continue on. Two subpossibilities: you have had a very bad extended run or you aren't playing all that well. Nobody but you can make that analysis, of course.

In years past I've read some bad stuff about the Indian casinos in California. I've never had a sniff of a problem myself, perhaps because I keep my bets much smaller than I would in Las Vegas. I do think that they are learning to be a little more diplomatic and less heavy handed. But remember that the law becomes problematic when you find yourself in a separate "nation." This is such a complex area that the law school near me offers an entire course on the matter.

Anyway, if you are backed off you are backed off. Act confused but just leave. Once they have made up their minds there is no way you are going to argue your way out of the situation.

By the way, why do you count chips in the toilet stall? I just stand in a corner in the bathroom and complete the task in about five seconds. There's enough nasty stuff on those chips as it is!

Jackie Chiles

[YaleMoto]

> YaleMoto:

> If you have been playing at a double deck game for 200
> hours in the last year at the same casino AND you are
> using a 1 - 15 bet spread AND you are still getting
> comped there are only two scenarios that seem logical:

> (1) This particular casino has utterly awful people
> watching the games. I would love to know where this
> place is because I spend on playing in (southern)
> California this summer.

> (2) The casino does not see you as a threat, and
> evidently wants you to continue on. Two
> subpossibilities: you have had a very bad extended run
> or you aren't playing all that well. Nobody but you
> can make that analysis, of course.

> In years past I've read some bad stuff about the
> Indian casinos in California. I've never had a sniff
> of a problem myself, perhaps because I keep my bets
> much smaller than I would in Las Vegas. I do think
> that they are learning to be a little more diplomatic
> and less heavy handed. But remember that the law
> becomes problematic when you find yourself in a
> separate "nation." This is such a complex
> area that the law school near me offers an entire
> course on the matter.

> Anyway, if you are backed off you are backed off. Act
> confused but just leave. Once they have made up their
> minds there is no way you are going to argue your way
> out of the situation.

> By the way, why do you count chips in the toilet
> stall? I just stand in a corner in the bathroom and
> complete the task in about five seconds. There's
> enough nasty stuff on those chips as it is!

> Jackie Chiles

Thanks for the response.

I was backed off in about 6 hours of play at the GN in LV last time there playing the same way I play in Cal., except I was spreading to two hands on positive counts (you can't do that in alot of DD deck games today).

However, I have developed a relationship with the pit in the Cal. casino which I didn't mention in my last post. Nevertheless, they seem much slower in backing off than LV. I have not been on an extended loss run.

By the way, they don't know how much I am winning since I pocket chips (and go to the toilet stall) and move tables frequently. I don't color up as suggested on the main page craps response post because the dealer loudly alerts the pit "500 green in," "500 black out," etc.

I don't use the sink area or any other area in the bathroom because when I am on a positive flux I have so many chips I need to organize rows of stacks in color and could be seen by security or thiefs outside the toilet stall. I do not recommed your approach on a big positive flux. Coloring up is a bad idea too - since it draws alot of attention as discussed above.

[Jackie Chiles]

Yalemoto:

A "relationship," huh? I wish I could be so lucky!

I am fascinated by the idea of chip hiding, and employ it to the extent I think I can move money off the table and not make the math so disturbed that the casino personnel eventually put two and two together. I do this because I play a lot at places where I am getting some really nice comps. I try hard to diminish my wins and exagerrate my losses without leaving behind a trail of tables that are so messed up with their chip counts that a diligent staff could figure out that I was the one pulling chips.

However, the sad fact is that I have burned out one casino after another with my comp hustle. They don't back me off. They don't bar me. They just cut off the comps. It's been my experience that if you haven't posted a net loss after say five or six trips (two or three days each), the casinos cease being interested in you.

Perhaps I am not pulling enough chips off the table. Perhaps my conservative approach is hurting me. Yalemoto, how many chips to you try to hide on a per hour basis? I go with two per hour. Also, do you have any ideas on the best way to do this? I play with one of my brothers from time to time and always ask him to watch me and see if he can spot me hiding chips. I'm getting pretty good at it, but I am always willing to learn from others.

Jackie Chiles