Eric: First Encounter with Another Counter

[Eric]

In my 6 years of counting, I recently had my first encounter with another counter at a table in a San Diego casino. He was using the typical counter tactics...asking everyone to show what they got with dealer's ace, asking the dealer "Sweetie, let's go one more round before you shuffle up" all the while the count was high, etc. Thought his auto mechanics work shirt was nice cover. He soon smelled me out as of the same endangered species, when I surrendered my 16 against the 10 with a big bet out, while the TC was +5. Once he figured me, he left while wishing the everyone at the table good luck, and patting me on the shoulder. Thought that was nice counter's etiquette since I was at the table first.

How common is this type of experience for you counters out there?

[Sun Runner]

> How common is this type of experience for you counters
> out there?

Don't know how common it all is but amazingly enough I have a couple auto mechanics workshirts myself! Various companies, various names on the pocket, all a little grease stained -but cleaned and pressed.

Hmmm. Thought I was the first to think of that.

[Victoria]

> Don't know how common it all is but amazingly enough I
> have a couple auto mechanics workshirts myself!
> Various companies, various names on the pocket, all a
> little grease stained -but cleaned and pressed.

> Hmmm. Thought I was the first to think of that.

>

Played with I guess that guy or perhaps Sun Runner at my favorite Riverside County casino not long ago.

Victoria

[Trapper]

Since the index is -3 (Hi Lo) I wouldn't think that surrendering at +5 would be much of a tell. Am I missing something?

[AutomaticMonkey]

> How common is this type of experience for you counters
> out there?

Once in a while I see a counter but being I tend to play in very large stores the counters can easily miss one another. Playing shoe at my betting level there's no good reason for one of us to leave the table, and being I Wong out I'm going to be leaving soon enough anyway. Under no circumstances do I leave a table with a good count.

There are also ways you can help one another out. Once a holecarder was sitting at my table and I used a fake sneeze to lift the hole card and give him a peek. He was an unappreciative bastard. But a few times I've formed ad hoc teams with others to help each other out. Counters have spotted me at the table and backlined me.

[Sun Runner]

> Played with I guess that guy or perhaps Sun Runner at
> my favorite Riverside County casino not long ago.

There are three of us!! Guess I need another costume.

Wasn't me; I don't get to SoCal until Christmas/New Years and then rarely ever get North of North County.

Care to share (privately?) what makes Riverside county so special?

Good luck.

[Lightning]

> How common is this type of experience for you counters
> out there?

I have found that it is very rare to encounter other counters. On the few occasions when I have spotted them, we would usually just keep are cool and continue playing as if the other was not there. The only thing that concerned me was if our bets would begin to go up in unison, we might draw a little heat.

The strangest encounter was in my early days when a dealer at a red table asked me what system I was using. Instead of getting be barred from the joined, he discussed game theory, related his experience with counting, and even offered advice on my game!

[Jack Fate]

> I have found that it is very rare to encounter other
> counters. On the few occasions when I have spotted
> them, we would usually just keep are cool and continue
> playing as if the other was not there. The only thing
> that concerned me was if our bets would begin to go up
> in unison, we might draw a little heat.

I'm a little suprised to hear that. I run into counters on a fairly regular basis. I still feel it is good form to exit when it becomes obvious there is another AP at the table.
One more thing. Never, ever, wong in on another counter when you know he or she is there.

[Mr. X]

It's very possible that you've 'encountered' several counters before, but didn't recognize them. Good ones are much harder to detect than this 'auto mechanic' guy.
It is NOT a common tactic for seasoned counters to ask players to show them their cards when dealer has ace up. That is pretty painfully obvious giveaway that he is a counter, and a novice one at that. Only newbie counters or counter wannabees would do that, imo. If he didn't do that, you probably would not have id'ed him as a counter.
I agree with Trapper, that surrendering 16 vs 10 is usually basic anyway, not a big tell at all.
I also agree with Jack Fate, there are more counters out there than you might think, if you know how to recognize them when they don't make obvious giveaways like asking to see players cards with ace up. Thing is, more seasoned counters are more subtle and harder to detect than this guy, so even if they were at your table, you may not realize it. And, as Jack said,
'never, ever, wong in on another
counter when you know he or she is there. '

[Rick]

> 'never, ever, wong in on another
> counter when you know he or she is there. '

What does wong in mean?
(Yes, I know who Stanford Wong is)

[Parker]

> What does wong in mean?
> (Yes, I know who Stanford Wong is)

Well, then you're halfway there. Stanford Wong may or may not have invented this technique, but he publicized it to the point that it now bears his name.

Essentially, a player "back-counts" a shoe game by standing near the table and keeping track of the count without actually playing. When the count becomes positive, the player enters the game, or "wongs in." If the count goes negative, the player leaves the game, or "wongs out."

This increases EV since the player is only actually in the game when he/she had the advantage. In addition, since negative counts are not being played, a smaller spread can be used, thus (hopefully) drawing less attention from the pit.

This is commonly referred to as the "back-count/wong" techinique, or more commonly, simply "wonging." Don Schlesinger discusses it extensively in his book, Blackjack Attack, 3rd. Edition (available from our online catalog and highly recommended).

[WallStRunoff]

> I'm a little suprised to hear that. I run into
> counters on a fairly regular basis. I still feel it is
> good form to exit when it becomes obvious there is
> another AP at the table.
> One more thing. Never, ever, wong in on another
> counter when you know he or she is there.

I play the shoes mainly, and I play green and black only - so I have seen very very few. I suppose there swarming in the single deckers up in Reno???

On one recent occasion I was playing a shoe game that went hot and another counter Wonged in. The dealer said "he's been standing their watching you to see if you play right before he sat down". I was pissed and stared him down becuase I had waited 2 hours for that situation and now I couldn't bet it the way I wanted to without looking extremely obvious. To his credit he played out the shoe then got up and never scouted my table again.

[WallStRunOff]

> It's very possible that you've 'encountered' several
> counters before, but didn't recognize them. Good ones
> are much harder to detect than this 'auto mechanic'
> guy.
> It is NOT a common tactic for seasoned counters to ask
> players to show them their cards when dealer has ace
> up. That is pretty painfully obvious giveaway that he
> is a counter, and a novice one at that. Only newbie
> counters or counter wannabees would do that, imo. If
> he didn't do that, you probably would not have id'ed
> him as a counter.

Good point. I ussually only notice them when the count gets irrestably high and we both stack em up. If this happens twice in succession I've pretty much got'em pegged. Don't see so many strategy deviations on the shoe games.

> I agree with Trapper, that surrendering 16 vs 10 is
> usually basic anyway, not a big tell at all.
> I also agree with Jack Fate, there are more counters
> out there than you might think, if you know how to
> recognize them when they don't make obvious giveaways
> like asking to see players cards with ace up. Thing
> is, more seasoned counters are more subtle and harder
> to detect than this guy, so even if they were at your
> table, you may not realize it. And, as Jack said,
> 'never, ever, wong in on another
> counter when you know he or she is there. '