Anna: Early or Late surrender?

[Anna]

I was trying to calculate the correct Basic Strategy for my game at Blackjackinfo.com and I'm stuck on early vs late surrender.
I'm playing in Europe, so ENHC (no hole card).

After the dealer has finished dealing the cards and before the playing begins, the dealer asks if you want to surrender.

Now, there are 2 scenarios, depending on the casino.
1st type allows surrender vs 2-10 but not vs Ace
2nd type allows surrender against EVERY dealer card.

Now, do I pick either Early or Late Surrender? It seems to be a mixture of both... quite confusing.

I assume surrender vs Ace is quite good for the player?

Thanks

[Parker]

The problem is that blackjackinfo.com and many other references are based on the American style of blackjack in which the dealer deals him/herself a hole card. If the dealer's upcard is a ten or an ace, the dealer will check for blackjack before the players play out their hands.

If you are allowed to surrender before the dealer checks for blackjack, it is early surrender. If you can only surrender after the dealer has verified that he/she does not have blackjack, then it is late surrender.

The European game is a little different since no hole card is dealt. If you may surrender against any upcard (including ace), then this is again early surrender.

If you may surrender against 2-10 only, but you still get to keep your surrender payout (half your original bet) if the dealer subsequently gets a blackjack (with a 10 upcard, of course), then this is a third type of surrender known as ES10. It is better than late surrender, but not nearly as good as early surrender.

There are a few European games in which the dealer leaves the surrender payout in the betting square until the hand is completed, and if the dealer gets a blackjack, the player loses the entire original bet. This is, of course, late surrender.

Early surrender is indeed very good for the player, and can turn a game with otherwise average rules into a game with a positive off-the-top expectation for the basic strategy player.

If blackjackinfo.com or other reference does not offer the ES10 option, using late surrender to calculate the edge will get a result closer to the actual edge than using early surrender.

[Anna]

You get back half your money straight away, so that would be Early Surrender. Thanks.

[Francis Salmon]

I don't think Late surrender exists in Europe since bets are settled immediately after you choose to surrender.
The usual thing (if surrender is offered at all) is ES10 which is worth 0.25% compared to 0.08% for Late surrender.
At some very rare places you get unrestricted Early surrender which is worth 0.65%.

Francis Salmon

[Don Schlesinger]

> I don't think Late surrender exists in Europe since
> bets are settled immediately after you choose to
> surrender.
> The usual thing (if surrender is offered at all) is
> ES10 which is worth 0.25% compared to 0.08% for Late
> surrender.
> At some very rare places you get unrestricted Early
> surrender which is worth 0.65%.

Note that any form of surrender is worth much, more more to the counter than to the BS player.

Don

[Oliver Loving]

Don. Can you explain why surrender is MUCH better for counters.

> Note that any form of surrender is worth much, more
> more to the counter than to the BS player.

> Don

[Ouchez]

There was a paper done on the value of surrender to counters and how it had been vastly underrated.

Maybe you can try to attain access to this paper, it was done by one...Arnold Snyder.

I will give you ONE example. While recently playing I had an 18 with the dealer having a face up, the count was very high, very high, so I surrendered, the dealer flipped a 20, he looked at me rather strangely. ( I also was tracking with great results).

Of course the opposite can also be true, not surrendering at times of a very low count.

Surrender is of value to all players who use it wisely, basic strategy players, or to highly skilled AP's.

Ouchez.

[Don Schlesinger]

> Don. Can you explain why surrender is MUCH better for
> counters.

Do you have BJA3? I discuss this at length in several different places. But, the bottom line is that surrender increases SCORE dramatically. What may be worth 0.07% to the BS strategy player can be worth a large multiple of that to the counter.

You surrender more often with very large bets out, so the value to the wide-spreading counter is much greater than to the basic strategist, who can't gain anything by bet-spreading or by knowing when to alter surrender BS, according to the count.

Don

[Oliver Loving]

Thanks for the direction. I have justread everything about surrender in BJA3 and now understand your point.

However, another issue has arisen in terms of the game I am currently playing (6 deck, DA2, DAS, S17, ENHC, ES10 70- 80% pen) relating to the fab four. I have been surrendering 14, 15 and 16 vs 10 regardless of count as that is BS for these rules. However, in the late surrender game surrendering 15 vs 10 is only right at non-negative counts and 14 is only right at +3. My question is "Are there negative counts at which it is better to hit 14 or 15 then surrender. This is a small private casino where wonging is not practical (often I am by myself) and given the rules, "play all" is quite acceptable anyways. Not sure if you have ever looked at this situation but if so would be interested in what you found and if not your "instinct" would be of interest

> Do you have BJA3? I discuss this at length in several
> different places. But, the bottom line is that
> surrender increases SCORE dramatically. What may be
> worth 0.07% to the BS strategy player can be worth a
> large multiple of that to the counter.

> You surrender more often with very large bets out, so
> the value to the wide-spreading counter is much
> greater than to the basic strategist, who can't gain
> anything by bet-spreading or by knowing when to alter
> surrender BS, according to the count.

> Don

[Don Schlesinger]

> My question is "Are there negative counts at
> which it is better to hit 14 or 15 than surrender?

Yes, there are indices for ES10, just as there are for LS.

For Hi-Lo, I have only 4-deck values from both Wong and Braun. I'll give you both, all against the ten:

12: 8,8
13: 3,3
14: 0,0
7,7: -1,-2
15: -2,-3
16: -5,-6
8,8: -2,-2
17: 5,5

Hope this helps.

Don

[Oliver Loving]

Thanks for the help and apologies - should have located that myself. Last time I read these sources BJA3 and PB, I had no access to games with surrender of any kind so it all went right by me

> Yes, there are indices for ES10, just as there are for
> LS.

> For Hi-Lo, I have only 4-deck values from both Wong
> and Braun. I'll give you both, all against the ten:

> 12: 8,8
> 13: 3,3
> 14: 0,0
> 7,7: -1,-2
> 15: -2,-3
> 16: -5,-6
> 8,8: -2,-2
> 17: 5,5

> Hope this helps.

> Don

[MGP]

> I was trying to calculate the correct Basic Strategy
> for my game at Blackjackinfo.com and I'm stuck on
> early vs late surrender.
> I'm playing in Europe, so ENHC (no hole card).

> After the dealer has finished dealing the cards and
> before the playing begins, the dealer asks if you want
> to surrender.

> Now, there are 2 scenarios, depending on the casino.
> 1st type allows surrender vs 2-10 but not vs Ace
> 2nd type allows surrender against EVERY dealer card.

I can get you the EV for both scenarios, but 2 things first:

1) Please post ALL the rules
2) When you decide to surrender, do you get your money back right away or does the dealer keep it if he has BJ?

Thanks,
MGP

[Anna]

Hi MGP,

When you surrender, you get back half your money straight away.

Other infos: 6D, DAS, DA2, ENHC. Split Aces get only one card.

> I can get you the EV for both scenarios, but 2 things
> first:

> 1) Please post ALL the rules
> 2) When you decide to surrender, do you get your money
> back right away or does the dealer keep it if he has
> BJ?

> Thanks,
> MGP