skrabo: Single Deck questions

[skrabo]

First I'd like to thank everyone for their input and respectful answers. I've been studying/learning/practicing as much as possible for the last month. I live fairly close to LV so I decided to learn Hi-Lo and focus on shoe games. After enough practice where I wanted to make a short trip to get some "real" practice, I decided to go to a closer location that mostly offered pretty fair SD games (No DAS, fair-good pen.,double any first two cards, split and re-split aces) I've decided to learn a new system and keep hi-lo for the less frequent trips to LV.

My questions...

I'm considering the Hi-Opt 1 with ace side count and the Omega II with ace side count. Which should I learn? I've compared the PE/BE/IE but I want to know personal preferences and opinions.

What are the best options for team play at SD?

Thanks.

[stainless steel rat]

> First I'd like to thank everyone for their
> input and respectful answers. I've been
> studying/learning/practicing as much as
> possible for the last month. I live fairly
> close to LV so I decided to learn Hi-Lo and
> focus on shoe games. After enough practice
> where I wanted to make a short trip to get
> some "real" practice, I decided to
> go to a closer location that mostly offered
> pretty fair SD games (No DAS, fair-good
> pen.,double any first two cards, split and
> re-split aces) I've decided to learn a new
> system and keep hi-lo for the less frequent
> trips to LV.

> My questions...

> I'm considering the Hi-Opt 1 with ace side
> count and the Omega II with ace side count.
> Which should I learn? I've compared the
> PE/BE/IE but I want to know personal
> preferences and opinions.

> What are the best options for team play at
> SD?

> Thanks.

I can offer two answers.

1. The best counting system for SD "team play" is a counting system that everyone uses. If you have four players, and three use Hi-Lo, the fourth using HO2 or whatever will be a fifth-wheel.

2. I'm not sure how you can "team play" a SD game. I've not seen many SD games that let you jump in mid-shuffle. And if you do, you are lucky to get 2-3 rounds between shuffles anyway, not giving you much time to call in a big player. If he is "hovering" over an empty seat, but not playing, only occasionally dropping a grand on a single hand before getting back up, I'd think even the dimmer pit critters would pick up on that real quick, since SD games are usually watched by a group of hawks...

Note that the MIT team really jumped on the 6d shoe games for their team play opportunities.

[skrabo]

> I can offer two answers.

> 1. The best counting system for SD
> "team play" is a counting system
> that everyone uses. If you have four
> players, and three use Hi-Lo, the fourth
> using HO2 or whatever will be a fifth-wheel.

Are you saying that if, for instance, I use the Hi-Opt 1 system and a team member is using hi-low on the same table, that our TC will be substantially different? I'm guessing if that's the case then I'll have to memorize a whole new set of indices for Hi-Opt 1. Are the indices for this system only available in The World's Greatest Blackjack Book, or can I find them someplace else?

> 2. I'm not sure how you can "team
> play" a SD game. I've not seen many SD
> games that let you jump in mid-shuffle. And
> if you do, you are lucky to get 2-3 rounds
> between shuffles anyway, not giving you much
> time to call in a big player. If he is
> "hovering" over an empty seat, but
> not playing, only occasionally dropping a
> grand on a single hand before getting back
> up, I'd think even the dimmer pit critters
> would pick up on that real quick, since SD
> games are usually watched by a group of
> hawks...

The particular casinos where I will be playing allow mid-shuffle entry and also some of the dealers deal almost down to 1/4 deck.

I understand your point that using a spotter/BP team might be less effective on SD games.

I was thinking of possibly using another person to : keep the insurance count, increase spread oppurtunities by playing two hands each in advantageous situations, show me his/her cards for increased accuracy in TC, and I would communicate to him/her any deviation in BS (so (s)he would only have to learn BS and the Insurance Count.)

Tell me if you think that would be possible and/or effecive.

If you have any other ideas I'd love to hear them.

> Note that the MIT team really jumped on the
> 6d shoe games for their team play
> opportunities.

Noted. I will retain Hi-Lo for shoe games and will use the bulk of my team for that game, but there are a few more motivated players that want to also take on the SD game with me.

Thanks for your response.

[Myooligan]

Skrabo,

You don't want Hi-Opt I. Don Schlesinger demonstrated that there isn't really a reason to choose it above the other options. To do as well as Hi-Lo with Hi-Opt I, for instance, you have to include an ace side count.

AO II and Hi-Opt II are considered the "flagship" counting systems; unless you're Rainman, you won't find a better option. They do gain over Hi-Lo, consistently, and significantly. However, these require both a level two count and an ace side count. There are "intermediate" systems in between (no ace side-count). I think you just have to get a feel for how well you can handle the added complexity.

Most players (ahem, I should add: players with far more experience than myself contend that every system has its strengths and weaknesses, and choosing a system really depends on personal preferences. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and argue that the Zen Count is the most logical intermediate choice. The research I've done suggests that Zen will outperform all other level-two systems, assuming full indexes, at many if not all games. I think the only reason the many level-two systems "blur together" is because there is little difference between them when played with only 22 indexes, the common benchmark for comparison. But enough plugging. . .

> I was thinking of possibly using another
> person to : keep the insurance count,
> increase spread oppurtunities by playing two
> hands each in advantageous situations, show
> me his/her cards for increased accuracy in
> TC, and I would communicate to him/her any
> deviation in BS (so (s)he would only have to
> learn BS and the Insurance Count.)

A thought: You want to compare how much the two of you can gain playing separately to this team scenario. Yes, you'd gain a little by getting the insurance count signalled your way, but you'd lose that because you'd have to camouflage your betting heavily, so that the pit doesn't say two people's bets rising and falling in unison.

One way you can do "team" play at SD is by having a group pool their resources, but still play individually. That way, you end up with a larger bankroll, which decreases your overall risk of ruin. This means you can place larger bets, thus increasing your win rate per person.

myoo

[stainless steel rat]

> Are you saying that if, for instance, I use
> the Hi-Opt 1 system and a team member is
> using hi-low on the same table, that our TC
> will be substantially different?

Yes. Think what happens when I count an A as -1, you count it as 0. Our counts will vary significantly, and in L2 counts, the range is larger since you have +/- 2 valued cards as well as the L1 +/- 1 valued cards. It could probably be made to work, but it might be about as tough as having one team member that speaks English, and another speeking Chinese.

I ran into a version of this glitch a couple of years ago where a hastily prepared "session" had a friend of a friend included, and damned if he wasn't using the A-5 count only. Talk about a communication problem... Once we figured out what was going on, we did OK, but chaos reigned for a while.

> I'm
> guessing if that's the case then I'll have
> to memorize a whole new set of indices for
> Hi-Opt 1. Are the indices for this system
> only available in The World's Greatest
> Blackjack Book, or can I find them someplace
> else?

You can find the indices scattered around, but there are probably significant details that would be missing.

> The particular casinos where I will be
> playing allow mid-shuffle entry and also
> some of the dealers deal almost down to 1/4
> deck.

> I understand your point that using a
> spotter/BP team might be less effective on
> SD games.

> I was thinking of possibly using another
> person to : keep the insurance count,
> increase spread oppurtunities by playing two
> hands each in advantageous situations, show
> me his/her cards for increased accuracy in
> TC, and I would communicate to him/her any
> deviation in BS (so (s)he would only have to
> learn BS and the Insurance Count.)

The separate insurance count is a known good idea. But SD games are _very_ tough to crack with multiple players all spreading their bets in unison. Some pit critters are stupid, but hardly any are blind, and waving it under their noses will likely draw a blowtorch.

You _must_ remember one golden rule. Almost anyone can catch a counter. But _only_ if they are looking for a counter. There's a moral buried in there when you think about it. Don't make them look or they will find.

> Tell me if you think that would be possible
> and/or effecive.

> If you have any other ideas I'd love to hear
> them.

> Noted. I will retain Hi-Lo for shoe games
> and will use the bulk of my team for that
> game, but there are a few more motivated
> players that want to also take on the SD
> game with me.

There are ideas to be tried. Shoe games are most vulnerable, but stealth has to be paramount. From experience, you get a couple of friends at a table, having "a good old time" and the first thing you know, you have been discovered because you forgot a golden rule.

> Thanks for your response.

Good luck. So long as you look for possible ways to exploit a game, you will likely find one here and there. Just takes a little thought and creativity, liberally applied.

[Parker]

> I'm considering the Hi-Opt 1 with ace side
> count and the Omega II with ace side count.
> Which should I learn? I've compared the
> PE/BE/IE but I want to know personal
> preferences and opinions.

Forget PE/BE/IE. Read BJA3 and compare SCORE's of the various systems. This will give you a more real-world idea of the relative power of the various systems.

Many people consider Hi-Opt I obsolete. It doesn't really gain anything over Hi-lo yet has the added complexity of an ace side count.

> What are the best options for team play at
> SD?

I don't believe that there are enough single deck games that take big action left for SD team play to be viable for more than a short period of time.

[skrabo]

So, do you think hi-lo with indices such as the I18 would get the job done in SD games?

Thanks for the advice.

[stainless steel rat]

> So, do you think hi-lo with indices such as
> the I18 would get the job done in SD games?

> Thanks for the advice.

I use hi-lo with I18 and fab-4, plus a few others that I learned over time. I play lots of DD games, and I've found one SD game I have played a couple of times in recent months (prior to that I had not seen anything but 6:5 SD games which I will not play). I've had good success in SD/DD games. There are better counting systems for SD where it helps to have a better playing efficiency so you don't have to rely on a big bet spread. But if you play SD, DD and 6D (I haven't seen any 4D games where I play) Hi-Lo will get the job done just fine, and (IMHO) it is a bit easier to not deal with side-counts, and 5 different values for cards as opposed to hi-lo's 3 values, etc. I personally believe that Hi-Lo done right is better than a L2 count done poorly. If you play regularly, you can probably do an L2 count with no trouble. If you play sporadically, hi-lo is like riding a bicycle, as opposed to riding a unicycle which takes more practice to keep up the skill.

Just my $.02 of course.

Any time you can find a good SD game to play, and you can actually play it without getting third degree burns from the heat, that's where you ought to be playing, IMHO.

[Wolverine]

You mention DD surrender in your post SSR. Where have you found DD surrender available with other favorable rules and/or penetration? It seems everywhere I ask about surrender in Las Vegas, the standard response is only on the shoes, not DD.

[Myooligan]

. . . "get the job done?" It's all relative. If you make x per hour using hi-lo I18, you can gain maybe 10% by using a level two system, and maybe 20% above that by using full indices (Very rough estimates to be taken with plenty of grains of salt

[stainless steel rat]

> You mention DD surrender in your post SSR.
> Where have you found DD surrender available
> with other favorable rules and/or
> penetration? It seems everywhere I ask about
> surrender in Las Vegas, the standard
> response is only on the shoes, not DD.

There is one on the MS coast. Most DD I play does not have LS, however, except for that one.

Pen is another issue. Some coast casinos are religious about using the discard tray slot that hits 50-66% depending. Some dealers seem to vary more and a couple don't even use the slot and insert the cut card by hand. I have seen DD penetration from 50-80%, I have seen SD from R06 to 50%, with occasional slip-ups going deeper. I have seen 6d from 50% to 80+% (cutting off one deck or sometimes even less).

I'm not sure about LS in Vegas in DD. I played a number of SD/DD games there last year and earlier this year, I don't remember if LS was available to be honest, as I am lucky to get there once or twice a year, max. I did play several shoe games, some of which offered LS, so I'll avoid trying to start a tangent thread about whether a particular place has a game I thought it offered, or not. The MS coast I am more familiar with although I don't visit every casino down there either (I plan to eventually scout 'em all but haven't so far).

[skrabo]

> . . . "get the job done?" It's all
> relative. If you make x per hour using hi-lo
> I18, you can gain maybe 10% by using a level
> two system, and maybe 20% above that by
> using full indices (Very rough estimates to
> be taken with plenty of grains of salt

Good point.

Basically I'm wondering if people who have experience playing SD and Shoe think it's worth it to learn two systems, or would it be more advantageous to just learn more indices for hi-lo? I know every situation is different, I will be playing a lot of SD and I also need to get better at hi-lo because of team play oppurtunities at shoe games.

Is there a level 1 that does substantially better at SD and MD than hi-lo, or am I beating the dead horse here?

[stainless steel rat]

> Good point.

> Basically I'm wondering if people who have
> experience playing SD and Shoe think it's
> worth it to learn two systems, or would it
> be more advantageous to just learn more
> indices for hi-lo? I know every situation is
> different, I will be playing a lot of SD and
> I also need to get better at hi-lo because
> of team play oppurtunities at shoe games.

> Is there a level 1 that does substantially
> better at SD and MD than hi-lo, or am I
> beating the dead horse here?

Since I play hi-lo, and since I also play SD, I can at least answer this half-way. Hi-Lo will work, but it is going to depend on more of a spread in your betting than a better PE count.

For example, how often do you double a 11 vs something and get an A? Painful. But the + count in HiLo correctly tells you when to bet big. At least one fellow counter I know well uses HiLo for most games, but uses HO2 for SD. He claims he can get away with a far smaller spread (I use 1-4 in SD). It would be nice to get away with flat-betting or at most going 1-2, and while you can beat a SD with hi-lo and 1-2 spread, it is not exactly a rapid process unless you are playing for really big bets all the time, say black.

CVCX/CVdata is the answer to all of this. You can compare to your heart's content, trying different counting strategies, different betting spreads, different game rules, and find exactly what will do the job you want done...

BTW this friend of mine is able to easily switch back and forth between hilo and HO2. I can seriously out-count him in HiLo if you measure speed. But he is accurate and can keep up with the dealers easily. What gets me is that we have played SD and 6D the same evening, and he switches back and forth easily. I'd have the count so screwed up if I changed games like that, that I would probably lose my shirt or worse... I always tell him it takes a _really_ weird person to pull that off...