stainless steel rat: Hi-Lo vs Zen

[bfbagain]

This is a very interesting answer, and I really am unsure of why I'm going to respond, as this most definitely will come under, "the laws of diminishing returns", but if there was a DD game at the Grand, it had to be the most short lived experiment I've ever seen there.

Not that I'm aware of everything that happens....but seeing that I make it my business to know about these games......well, you sure it wasn't at the Mandalay Bay, as that is the only DD game that I know of, at that time, (LV Hilton also has it now, but not then) in Vegas that offers surrender.

I may not have taken the time to comment, but you did say MGM Grand, the only MGM property in Vegas that does NOT offer a DD game.

I'm sorry, but this is so unlikely........and I DO know of what I speak, that you want to review your notes again? Maybe.

cheers
bfb

[Sun Runner]

> This is a very interesting answer, and I
> really am unsure of why I'm going to
> respond, as this most definitely will come
> under, "the laws of diminishing
> returns",

Maybe you are responding here as this 'law of diminishing returns' game has a lot smaller negative EV than other similiar games being passed on.

[stainless steel rat]

> This is a very interesting answer, and I
> really am unsure of why I'm going to
> respond, as this most definitely will come
> under, "the laws of diminishing
> returns", but if there was a DD game at
> the Grand, it had to be the most short lived
> experiment I've ever seen there.

> Not that I'm aware of everything that
> happens....but seeing that I make it my
> business to know about these
> games......well, you sure it wasn't at the
> Mandalay Bay, as that is the only DD game
> that I know of, at that time, (LV Hilton
> also has it now, but not then) in Vegas that
> offers surrender.

> I may not have taken the time to comment,
> but you did say MGM Grand , the only MGM
> property in Vegas that does NOT offer a DD
> game.

yes, I did say the MGM grand. I could give the exact days I was there, but that might produce a problem should they be interested.

If you say it is no longer there, I'll take that at face value. The week I was out there, I noticed it (did not think it was unusual) the first night my brother and I were playing. I watched for a while as it was $100 min (we arrived on a Saturday afternoon and didn't hit the casino proper until saturday night). I didn't give it much thought as that was higher stakes than I wanted to play (and it was not in the high-limit area either).

A couple of mornings later (I want to think Tuesday) we were going to walk up the strip to as far as Caesar's as we had Celine tickets for later that week and wanted to be sure we knew where it was and how long it would take to get there by foot. While waiting for out wives to get ready, we headed down to a 6d shoe game to kill time and found this DD game for $25. I only played it once, as most of the time during the day we were either visiting other casino locations, or else driving out into no-mans-land to see the sights (Hoover dam, the lake, the "valley of fire" and so forth).

> I'm sorry, but this is so
> unlikely........and I DO know of what I
> speak, that you want to review your notes
> again? Maybe.

I won't say I am 100% certain as that was 7+ months ago. However, I did ask my brother this morning via phone and his recollection was the same... We did play a couple of other DD games that morning, and on a lark I played a $100 table, I think either at the Bellagio or at Caesar's as we were out looking around...

That's all I can say, really. I don't do this with a palm or anything, so it is possible that by the time we walked from the Grand, to the tropicana, over to the luxor and mandalay, up the street thru NYNY, all the way down to Caesar's, across the street and back up the other side to the Grand, I could have had a "blurry moment" although I can say for certain that I didn't touch any alcohol while out.

> cheers
> bfb

[bfbagain]

you just happened to pick the one casino, and not just any one casino, where not only do they NOT have a DD game, none of the MGM/Mirage properties offer surrender on the DD games they do offer.

You can see, I hope, where the obvious scepticism is coming from.....

FWIW, I DO know the MGM, as well as every other good (counting, i.e., rules, pen etc.) game in Vegas. I also play the MGM (their 6D games) often. Not to mention that this thread is on the beginners page, so I really don't want people to get the wrong info.

That said, stranger things have happened, so there IS the (remote :-) ) possibility that there was some kind of experiment by MGM (in setting up a $25 DD w/LS table on the main floor), but believe me, it would be an unbelievably remote possibility.

I know that you are posting a lot on all the main BJ boards, so it's probably in your best interest to not give the impression that your info is suspect.

As I said, it could have been an aberration, but knowledgable AP's, who know the games, know that this is unlikely, that words can't even come close to describing it. But, I could be wrong. :-)

cheers
bfb
BTW, you have nothing to fear in discussing anything that happened in June of last year at the MGM. I'll go so far out on the limb to say that I was even there in June of last year. :-)

[stainless steel rat]

> you just happened to pick the one casino,
> and not just any one casino, where not only
> do they NOT have a DD game, none of the
> MGM/Mirage properties offer surrender on
> the DD games they do offer.

> You can see, I hope, where the obvious
> scepticism is coming from.....

> FWIW, I DO know the MGM, as well as every
> other good (counting, i.e., rules, pen etc.)
> game in Vegas. I also play the MGM (their 6D
> games) often. Not to mention that this
> thread is on the beginners page, so I really
> don't want people to get the wrong info.

Neither do I. I had not mentioned it in fact, until (I believe) Parker asked. When I play "serious BJ" I generally have reliable notes so that I can remember where a good game was, although of course most of the time when I go back 6 months later things have changed anyway.

In this case, I'm not 100% certain, as this was 7+ months ago, and on this particular day, I did play BJ in several casinos as we wandered from the MGM to the Luxor/Mandalay up to Caesars and back. And I will certainly allow that it is possible that since I was not "taking notes" as we went along, that both my brother and I confused a normal DD game with a DD with LS, by mixing up where we played that particular LS game. I certainly played a DD game at the grand, both my brother and I agree there. And I know I stayed at the grand as I still have the bill (we got two free nights, stayed 6 total.)

So I'll just leave it at that. Whether the MGM had LS on the DD game or not, I would not want to "swear on a bible" yes or no. I certainly believe that is where we played the game, but at age 57, I know full well that I have had my share of "senior moments" and scrambled a detail or two from time to time. I have also played a fair amount of DD on the MS coast, both LS and noLS varieties, but I've played those more recently and have a better recollection. I may hit vegas once a year, sometimes twice if my wife goes with me for a non-business trip, so I don't claim to know a lot about current conditions since my last visit was June '04...

> That said, stranger things have happened, so
> there IS the (remote :-) ) possibility that
> there was some kind of experiment by MGM (in
> setting up a $25 DD w/LS table on the main
> floor), but believe me, it would be an
> unbelievably remote possibility.

> I know that you are posting a lot on all the
> main BJ boards, so it's probably in your
> best interest to not give the impression
> that your info is suspect.

> As I said, it could have been an aberration,
> but knowledgable AP's, who know the games,
> know that this is unlikely, that words can't
> even come close to describing it. But, I
> could be wrong. :-)

> cheers
> bfb
> BTW, you have nothing to fear in discussing
> anything that happened in June of last year
> at the MGM. I'll go so far out on the limb
> to say that I was even there in June of last
> year. :-)

My worry would be specific dates of arrival / departure might disclose more than I want. If you played any 6d with a 56 year old male that was talkative but not bullsh**ative, you might have seen me anywhere between the luxor and Caesars. I even played a DD game at Caesar's with a dealer named "Caesar". Thought some kids were simply ragging on him until he later told me "no, that is my real name, I lost my name tag but it really is Caesar."

I also played at one 6d shoe that used an ASM (not CSM) although others I have talked to never saw such a thing at the MGM. I ran into it at exactly one table, whether it was a trial or not I don't know. Game seemed to be fine in other regards, moved a little faster as there was no waiting except for the slight delay of extracting 6 new decks and putting 'em in the shoe and then stuffing the discards into the machine to shuffle while we played...

I can say we were there in the latter part of june. The very latter part. We wanted to stay at either the Bellagio or Caesar's, but there was some sort of conference going on there that had them booked up.. MGM was certainly a nice place, although the parking deck is a long walk away.

BTW LS is certainly not that common over this way. I can only be certain of one casino that offers it, although there might be others. I can be certain of many that do not. Particularly indian locations like Pearl River that also offer ugly penetration.

And no I don't know if the local store offers LS in it's crapjack games either. Never was inclined to ask nor care.

One other detail. If you can find a pit in vegas that has what I would call a podium, as in one you might see at the front of a classroom, and glued to the side of it is one of those two-layer plastic signs like you might see on an office worker's desk (name plate) that says "surrender is available" you have found the place where we played DD with LS. I seem to remember that the sign itself was a tan/bronze/similar color where a machine was used to cut through the dark layer to expose the next layer (doesn't seem like letters were white but they may have been). Sign was _not_ big. And it was not on the tables anywhere. That is the only thing that really stands out in my memory about this game. As I remember commenting to my brother "seems like a stupid place to have that sign" since this pit was not 100% blackjack either (table next to it was 3-card poker with my sister-in-law playing). Got conned into playing that ($10 min which is a lie when you make 3 min bets) and pissed away $200 I had won at the 6d game the previous day...

that's my most recent "vegas adventure" with as many details about the DD/LS game as I can recall... I filled out my notes late that night, after walking and playing all day, so I would certainly say it is possible both of us (my brother and I) mis-remember details. Wouldn't be the first time. Nor probably the last time (according to my wife)...

[bfbagain]

I was going to be done with this, but then you went on.. "I even played a DD game at Caesar's with a dealer named "Caesar". Thought some kids were simply ragging on him until he later told me "no, that is my real name, I lost my name tag but it really is Caesar." "

It really is not my intention to call people out, but there is soooo much bullshit that people post, that on occasion, someone has to deal with it. It looks like today is my day...

I did this with that idiot (although I wasn't alone) Richard the dealer, and I was charitable with your MGM stuff...., but. let me say this, MGM Grand does not have a DD game. OK. Sorry, it doesn't. I said my peace, but then you couldn't leave it go. You then had to bring up the Caesars story.

Caesars has ONE, count 'em, ONE DD table. It did have, although I haven't checked in a couple of months, but there were reports that it was removed , but on request, you could get it opened for a $500 min., in the HL Salon ONLY! Not in the Palace pit, or the Forum pit, or even the new (near the new entrance) pit, which wasn't opened last June regardless.

The minimim during the week (in the day only was $100). After 2-3PM, it was raised to $200. If Caesars is crowded, as is often the case this last year, it quickly goes to $500 min.

How do I know this? because I play it. Not often there, as the pen is (extremely) dealer dependant, that said, it's beatable. But the MB (with H17) and better pen, is a better game usually.

So, it's extremely unlikely that you played this game with kids, and with a dealer named "Caesar" and on and on.

Stop.

I'll give you a chance. I'll bust my post(s), if you feel that you may have been mistaken, because.....you are. And life will continue.

As I said, it's not my intention to get into confrontations, but I know... Ok, I know what is reality here, and this isn't.

And although you didn't say it the Beau (of which I also know) also doesn't offer late surrender. Only the Copa does (on the gulf coast). OK

cheers
bfb

[stainless steel rat]

> I was going to be done with this, but then
> you went on.. "I even played a DD game
> at Caesar's with a dealer named
> "Caesar". Thought some kids were
> simply ragging on him until he later told me
> "no, that is my real name, I lost my
> name tag but it really is Caesar."
> " It really is not my intention to
> call people out, but there is soooo much
> bullshit that people post, that on occasion,
> someone has to deal with it. It looks like
> today is my day...

> I did this with that idiot (although I
> wasn't alone) Richard the dealer, and I was
> charitable with your MGM stuff...., but. let
> me say this, MGM Grand does not have a DD
> game. OK. Sorry, it doesn't. I said my
> peace, but then you couldn't leave it go.
> You then had to bring up the Caesars story.

I simply reported what I did. Nothing more, nothing less. I have three people that stood right behind me at a $100 minimum DD game at Caesar's. I did not ask "is this an every day game?" I did not ask "is this an experiment?" We had just located the theater where Celine Dione would be performing, and we walked thru the place to play. It was at a pretty bad time, and was very busy. As I tried to find a BJ table, my wife jokingly said "there's an empty seat" (she saw the $100 min sign and said this as a joke.) I did sit down, played a very few rounds until I hit one of those hands that gets split three times and doubled, and she insisted I color up and leave after seeing that much risk at one time.

I don't have any particular reason to make this up. And I am not. If I was in some sort of time-warp or alternate universe, I have no idea. But I played at least 3-4 different DD games while I was there. A third was (I believe) either at the Luxor or Mandalay, but all of this is somewhat "foggy".

I'll be the first to admit that I could easily get a name wrong. 7 months after the fact I can't even remember the difference between Paris and Bellagio or Caesars, when thinking back about how the casinos looked inside.

It is not that important a deal to me, if you believe I am trying to intentionally make things up, for whatever reason I have no idea, then feel free to believe what you want. If you want to believe that I am confusing a jumble of casinos and that I somehow attached the wrong name to the right game, that is more than possible. However, I have related what I saw, as best as I can. As I mentioned, most of that "day" was what I would call "a lark". The serious sessions I played I am pretty certain I have the details correct as I try to track wins, losses, etc with some degree of detail. But on this "walk the strip and play everywhere" sort of sightseeing, it is more than a little possible that I have totally scrambled the locations. I don't believe so, but I can not say with any degree of certainty.

Why you would think that falls into the "bullshit" category is a bit beyond me however. If I had thought the details were _that_ important I would have not said anything at all. Parker simply asked "where did you find DD LS in vegas?" I _believe_ I answered correctly. I certainly can't prove it, nor would I even want to try.

End of story for me, sorry.

> Caesars has ONE, count 'em, ONE DD table. It
> did have, although I haven't checked in a
> couple of months, but there were reports
> that it was removed , but on request, you
> could get it opened for a $500 min., in the
> HL Salon ONLY! Not in the Palace pit, or the
> Forum pit, or even the new (near the new
> entrance) pit, which wasn't opened last June
> regardless.

> The minimim during the week (in the day only
> was $100). After 2-3PM, it was raised to
> $200. If Caesars is crowded, as is often the
> case this last year, it quickly goes to $500
> min.

That matches what I said I believe. The table was open in the early afternoon with a $100 sign on it. However it appeared that "something" had just gotten out as the place was crushed with people, maybe a conference breaking up or an early show letting out I don't know.

> How do I know this? because I play it. Not
> often there, as the pen is (extremely)
> dealer dependant, that said, it's beatable.
> But the MB (with H17) and better pen, is a
> better game usually.

> So, it's extremely unlikely that you played
> this game with kids, and with a dealer named
> "Caesar" and on and on.

You can probably ask at the place. The dealer's name was _definitely_ Caesar. Or at least he said it was. About 5'8, 50-60 years old, quiet, liked to peek at his hole card and then act like he was going to flip it over as a bj. Jerked the chain of the "younger players" doing that.

These "kids" were doctors. They were attending a conference my daughter was also attending. Something in the medical field, I don't know what. They had lots of money. Of course, many people in vegas have lots of money so that is no surprise...
So "kids" didn't mean snot-nosed diaper-wearing toddlers. I encountered asian "kids" betting $1000 a pop at the grand, for example. Anyone under 35-40 is a kid to me, nowadays.

> Stop.

> I'll give you a chance. I'll bust my
> post(s), if you feel that you may have been
> mistaken, because.....you are. And life will
> continue.

No need to bust 'em IMHO. I could easily have gotten the names wrong. As I said, I didn't consider the specifics that big a deal, I was just trying to answer a question with an off-the-cuff answer that could easily have been scrambled.

> As I said, it's not my intention to get into
> confrontations, but I know... Ok, I know
> what is reality here, and this isn't.

> And although you didn't say it the Beau (of
> which I also know) also doesn't offer late
> surrender. Only the Copa does (on the gulf
> coast). OK

I play them both. Beau does offer LS, although not in all games. But I mainly play 6d and the last time I played there 6d was certainly LS.

Copa also has (or had) a decent SD as well. I assume it is still there as someone I know sent me an email report about playing there in early january.

[bfbagain]

So although I didn't state specifically that the Beau had LS on the 6D only, I was prepared for you to comment on that.

Look, I'm really not trying to bust your balls, but if you're going to relate stories, events, casino conditions, etc., and you want to be taken seriously (otherwise why post?), then don't you think a little accuracy is important?

If the Caesars game took place in the "Palace Court", i.e., the HL salon at Caesars, and you "stated" that, there wouldn't have been another post by me. I already said that I was going to leave the MGM Grand DD issue alone. Anyone who has played at the MGM, knows that there is no DD game there. Period! That said, every casino surrounding the Grand does, in fact, have one. Could you be mistaken? Of course. Is it a big deal? No. But it is just as easy to say that your memory was a little fuzzy, that it could have just as easily been the NYNY, or San Remo, or the Trop... But no, you were specifically relating an event associated with DD and surrender. A reasonable person would (could?) easily expect you to remember that piece of information, as it is not common at Las Vegas DD games. It is a rare rule, and it seemed to figure prominently in your story, thus it is reasonable to expect someone to get that right!

Again, this is the "beginners" page, and many people may come away thinking that the MGM might offer a DD game with surrender. They do not. On both counts.

What's wrong with just saying, "ok, I made a mistake", and letting it go. Really. People make mistakes. I make mistakes. It's an imperfect world.

When I'm wrong, I admit I'm wrong, and get on with it. It's an amazing strength. More people ought to try it.

"To err is human."

My lectures for the day are complete.

Have a good day Professor.

cheers
bfb

[stainless steel rat]

> So although I didn't state specifically that
> the Beau had LS on the 6D only , I was
> prepared for you to comment on that.

> Look, I'm really not trying to bust your
> balls, but if you're going to relate
> stories, events, casino conditions, etc.,
> and you want to be taken seriously
> (otherwise why post?), then don't you think
> a little accuracy is important?

Actually I do. And as a general rule, if I report on a specific game, which I have done in the past, I do my best to get things right, perhaps fudging on the date or whatever if discretion seems in order.

Let me recap. This started out as a question about zen vs hi-lo. I made a _very_ simple comment that the extra effort of Zen offers a modest improvement in PE. Someone jumped on that saying "PE" is not a good comparison. Even though many BJ sites list all the counting strategies and blatantly post BC, PE and IC numbers for comparison. OK, so I took a game I play frequently, which just happened to be DD (not always LS but the very last DD game I played was LS) and entered those rules into CVCX and posted the SCORE and win rate per hour. That leads to a lot of "you are wrong, you are doing something wrong, etc." In reality I wasn't. It just so happens that the CVCX Zen count tables don't have surrender indices, apparently because they were not done for the original Zen count. OK. Parker figured that out. Now we diverged a bit and I don't recall my exact quote but it had something to do with DD/LS on the coast and in vegas. parker asked "where in vegas did you see this?" and I responded. To the best of my recollection. Someone (maybe you, I am not sure) asked again, and this time I asked my brother who was there with me. He said "I think so, I remember the game, I want to say it was at the Grand." So that was it. I just offered a "best recollection." I didn't attach any significance to it at all. I asked about games before and have been given advice by good players, only to go there and be told "we've discontinued that game here" or "we no longer offer resplitting aces" or whatever. And I hardly assume they are telling me things to get me to go out of my way to a game I would not normally want to play.

If the "standard" here is that everything be perfect, that's fine. But I would assume that is _not_ the standard based on observation. For example, Don said he ran the same sim as I did on BJRM and got better values for Zen. Did he omit the LS that had been repeatedly mentioned or did he have a Zen system with non-standard surrender indices? Didn't really matter to me, as we ultimately found the reason thanks to Parker.

I'm afraid that if the standard we have to use here is "No game can be mentioned unless it is absolutely for certain that the game is available on the day the post is written, with exactly the same condistions as written." I don't even believe "TrackJack" meets that standard. If the standard is "you are not allowed to visit a big city, wander through dozens of casinos, and make a mistake on what game you saw where once in a while." then that _also_ will leave me out. I've developed a pretty good memory for those things that I consider important and worth remembering. At my age, everything else goes to hell in a handbasket, pretty quickly. Unfortunately. So I answered to the best of my memory. If it didn't meet the standard you'd like to see, then I apologize for violating that standard.

I would hardly even bring up most of the things I have done to pro AP players. Hence my visiting the "beginner's page"...

> If the Caesars game took place in the
> "Palace Court", i.e., the HL salon
> at Caesars, and you "stated" that,
> there wouldn't have been another post by me.

You will have to pardon my ignorance of Caesars. I was in there for about 3 hours. We ate at the Palms (I believe that is what it is called, downstairs before you go up into the casino/theatre areas). We walked upstairs and found where the show was going to be. We went. After the show there were so many people we left.

That was my second visit. The first was a day or so before where we walked in, the two wives started playing slots, I walked around the place looking, and then as we were walking through here and there she said "look there..." and away the $100 (very short) adventure started. I'm not even sure I could describe where it was, as that was my one and only very short playing session there. I did most of my playing closer to the Grand or else when we drove down to see that incredible light gadget downtown and went into some of the old standby places just to see them and play a bit.

> I already said that I was going to leave the
> MGM Grand DD issue alone. Anyone who has
> played at the MGM, knows that there is no DD
> game there. Period! That said, every casino
> surrounding the Grand does, in fact, have
> one. Could you be mistaken? Of course. Is it
> a big deal? No. But it is just as easy to
> say that your memory was a little fuzzy,
> that it could have just as easily been the
> NYNY, or San Remo, or the Trop... But no,
> you were specifically relating an event
> associated with DD and surrender. A
> reasonable person would (could?) easily
> expect you to remember that piece of
> information, as it is not common at Las
> Vegas DD games. It is a rare rule, and it
> seemed to figure prominently in your story,
> thus it is reasonable to expect someone to
> get that right!

Fine by me. I believe I did say that it was more than possible that I mixed up the location of the DD, since I didn't play long, and my log entry is pretty unspecific "Played DD here, 6d there, 6d here, DD there, SD for five rounds until got a 6:5 ripoff and left, ... and ended up $-140 for the long walk."

That's not exact, but you get the idea. If you walk from the MGM over to the trop, to Luxor/Mandalay (went to Luxor to get Blue-Man tickets and play a little also) to NYNY all the way down to Caesars, and back on the other side (including a side trip thru the M&M candy store for wife) all in late june, temp well over 100F, eyes burning from dryness, the "session report" I wrote was necessarily less than accurate. I was really only trying to keep up with win/lose as it was interesting to carefully track this accurately over the past 5 years or so now to see how I'm doing.

So yes, I could be mistaken. The only problem is that I can not say for certain that I am, because it sure seems like it was the Grand. If you say it is impossible, that's fine. I once went through Graceland in Memphis. I would have sworn it was with my wife. But in talking about a trip up there with my brother and his wife a few months back, she was certain she had never been. I am certain I have been. Go figure. Did I go before we got married? That goes back to 1968 so I don't think so. But somebody is wrong. It really doesn't matter who, in the great scheme of life. We'll just go again and that solves the debate.

> Again, this is the "beginners"
> page, and many people may come away thinking
> that the MGM might offer a DD game with
> surrender. They do not. On both counts.

> What's wrong with just saying, "ok, I
> made a mistake", and letting it go.
> Really. People make mistakes. I make
> mistakes. It's an imperfect world.

If you say they have never offered this game, obviously I made a mistake. For the life of me, I still recall that game as being at the Grand. But, in vegas, things get to look alike. So if you want me to say "I know I was wrong" that isn't going to happen. Any more than I can say "I know I am right". Had too many of those discussions with my wife, and I probably bat about .500...

> When I'm wrong, I admit I'm wrong, and get
> on with it. It's an amazing strength. More
> people ought to try it.

> "To err is human."

> My lectures for the day are complete.

> Have a good day Professor.

> cheers
> bfb

Ditto...

[Don Schlesinger]

> Someone jumped
> on that saying "PE" is not a good
> comparison.

It isn't.

> Even though many BJ sites list
> all the counting strategies and blatantly
> post BC, PE and IC numbers for comparison.

It's the old-fashioned way. We've moved on. SCORE is better.

> OK, so I took a game I play frequently,
> which just happened to be DD (not always LS
> but the very last DD game I played was LS)
> and entered those rules into CVCX and posted
> the SCORE and win rate per hour. That leads
> to a lot of "you are wrong, you are
> doing something wrong, etc."

A subtle point here. It's possible I may have once written "you are wrong," but I more often wrote, because it is my style, "something is wrong here," which, clearly is not the same thing. And, immodestly, I have to point out to you that, if I write "something is wrong," 99% of the time, something is wrong. And, it was here.

> For example, Don said
> he ran the same sim as I did on BJRM and got
> better values for Zen.

Almost. BJRM is for the I18 and Fab 4. You used CVCX's "complete indices," only, unfortunately, the comparison was apples to oranges, because there were no Zen surrender indices -- a slight drawback! :-)

> Did he omit the LS
> that had been repeatedly mentioned

No. I read very carefully.

> or did he
> have a Zen system with non-standard
> surrender indices?

Neither. I had a Zen system with indices furnished by John Auston, as part of "Systems 101."

Here's the simple conclusion: You come here for occasional guidance and advice. But, you don't always take the advice that you are given, which is fine, I suppose. Only, when you are told that something is wrong, it would be a good idea to accept that it is, rather than to surmise that you have found a remarkable situation, where, for just the game you're playing, Hi-Lo mysteriously outperforms Zen.

My intuition told me that this didn't make any sense. And, if there's one thing that I NEVER argue with, it's my intuition! :-)

Don

[stainless steel rat]

> It isn't.

> It's the old-fashioned way. We've moved on.
> SCORE is better.

> A subtle point here. It's possible I may
> have once written "you are wrong,"
> but I more often wrote, because it is my
> style, " something is wrong
> here," which, clearly is not the same
> thing. And, immodestly, I have to point out
> to you that, if I write "something is
> wrong," 99% of the time, something is
> wrong. And, it was here.

Actually nothing was wrong here. Hilo did do better because Zen has no LS indices. I don't consider that "wrong" in any shape, form or fashion. It was more a characteristic of the game I happened to have chosen for comparison than anything I (or anyone else) did that was technically "wrong".

IMHO of course, as if you assume that "this count is better, but it has no surrender indices, so for a surrender game it isn't reasonable to compare it to HiLo" where I would respond "but if I play this game a lot, then it is a perfectly valid way to compare since I was always very clear as to the specific rules for the game I was using." I have a hard time counting any of the above as "something is wrong". Perhaps "something is producing unexpected results..."

> Almost. BJRM is for the I18 and Fab 4. You
> used CVCX's "complete indices,"
> only, unfortunately, the comparison was
> apples to oranges, because there were no Zen
> surrender indices -- a slight drawback! :-)

Yes, but I used Zen will _all_ of "zen's indices" vs HiLo with all the hilo indices. It doesn't seem reasonable to me to handicap hi-lo just because zen doesn't address surrender indices. Now if someone had noticed this and said "OK, test with either no LS, or test with these extra surrender indices for zen" I would have been happy to do so, the results would have been different, and it wouldn't have bothered me one iota...

> No. I read very carefully.

> Neither. I had a Zen system with indices
> furnished by John Auston, as part of
> "Systems 101."

> Here's the simple conclusion: You come here
> for occasional guidance and advice. But, you
> don't always take the advice that you are
> given, which is fine, I suppose. Only, when
> you are told that something is wrong, it
> would be a good idea to accept that it is,
> rather than to surmise that you have found a
> remarkable situation, where, for just the
> game you're playing, Hi-Lo mysteriously
> outperforms Zen.

Did I not find exactly that? Or do we have to use some definition of "zen" other than that which is generally accepted (I suppose the CVCX indices Norm uses come directly from the book/system?)

I was never arguing that HiLo was better. Never said nor (I hope) implied that. I said "OK, here is a game I see locally, when I run sims hilo does better. Here are the settings I used. Identical for both counting systems. Does anybody see anything wrong?" And as others tried, they got similar results. Fortunately Parker picked up on the LS issue that no one had mentioned in several dozen posts.

> My intuition told me that this didn't make
> any sense. And, if there's one thing that I
> NEVER argue with, it's my intuition! :-)

> Don

Three women sitting on a bench. First woman says "my instinct says it's gonna rain." Second woman says "my instinct says it is just going to be a cloudy day." Third woman says "my instincts too, but it don't give out weather forecasts..."



As far as intuition goes, I'm in a different field. Intuition is often wrong. Computer science is full of "anomalies". Belady's Anomaly is a classic in demand paging discussions. Intuitively more memory results in lower paging rates. But not _always_. This was one of those cases with Hi-Lo and it didn't seem unexpected. I was always taught any sentence with "always" in it is always false. Always had trouble as the sentence is a self-contradiction, but the point is pretty clear. I'd expect Zen to out-perform Hi-Lo _most_ of the time. But logic says there must be exceptions. Such as LS proved...

[Norm Wattenberger]

I hate it when I disagree with Don 'cause it means I'm wrong. But, I insist on using indexes from the books when comparing systems in CVCX with the included tables. You see I am not comparing merely the tag values. I am comparing the full systems, including compromises, selective use of risk aversion, etc, as stated in the respective books. The comparison of tag values exists in BJA. But, I want to compare HiLo in ProBJ with HiLo Lite in BiB. Same tag values - different systems. So, to me apples and oranges means something different. The SpeedCount ad includes a comparison of SpeedCount with HiLo. But, they have NO indexes in their HiLo sims. They say they do this to make it a fair comparison. It isn't a fair comparison 'cause no one uses HiLo that way. (I was mightily tempted to add SpeedCount to my scams page.)

Blackjack Scams

[Don Schlesinger]

I have no problem with what you've explained above, but then I think it very important for users of CVCX -- or any product -- to understand exactly what they are using and what results they are producing.

Software such as yours now provides us with the ability to generate index numbers of our own -- something that was lacking in the earlier days, when buyers relied on the system sellers to provide not only the tag values, but the indices, as well.

Frankly, were I to want to use any count system whatsoever, starting out today, I wouldn't trust the accuracy of any of the published indices in any of the books; I'd generate my own custom set with the more modern tools now available.

So, while it may be of historical interest to see how Hi-Opt I or II performs with indices supplied -- or not supplied -- by Humble, say, 25 years ago, those aren't the values I want to be using when I play the game today, or when I compare how his systems perform compared to, say, AOII or Halves, or whatever.

We are playing in 2005. We should be using 2005 technology and data to play the game as well as we can. It makes little sense to me to ponder over the deficiencies of Zen to handle surrender, simply because the original furnisher of the indices failed to include surrender.

Don