mws: KO in comparison with Hi-Opt I

[mws]

i am a total beginner and I read the "World`s greatest blackjack book" , have been practicing counting with Hi-opt 1 for a while.
1.is KO ( no true count , ace count included) better choice than Hi-Opt1 ( no ace count version )?
2. I also read that the dealer could burn up to 10 cards at the beginning of every game - is this true and considering the usual penetration what help is it counting cards at all?
Thanks, Parker for the previous answers!

[Parker]

> i am a total beginner and I read the
> "World`s greatest blackjack book"
> , have been practicing counting with Hi-opt
> 1 for a while.
> 1.is KO ( no true count , ace count
> included) better choice than Hi-Opt1 ( no
> ace count version )?

Yes. KO will perform as well or better than Hi-opt I in most games if the ace side count is not used, and KO is much simpler to learn and use. World's Greatest Blackjack Book is a classic, but it is somewhat dated.

> 2. I also read that the dealer could burn up
> to 10 cards at the beginning of every game -
> is this true and considering the usual
> penetration what help is it counting cards
> at all?

I've never seen any place where the dealers burn more than 6 cards off the top (of each shoe, not each game). A game with 10 cards burned off the top of each round would indeed be unplayable. I have never seen or heard of such a game. 6 (or 10, for that matter) cards off the top is no big deal. It just means that penetration is not as good as it appears, and your true-count conversion might have to be adjusted slightly (if you're using a true-counted system).

> Thanks, Parker for the previous answers!

You're welcome.

[mws]

is it true that the authors of KO (at least one of them) work for a casino or a company supplying casinos?
I read this and some critics on amazon.com which put under doubt the performance of KO.

> Yes. KO will perform as well or better than
> Hi-opt I in most games if the ace side count
> is not used, and KO is much simpler to learn
> and use. World's Greatest Blackjack Book
> is a classic, but it is somewhat dated.

> I've never seen any place where the dealers
> burn more than 6 cards off the top (of each
> shoe, not each game). A game with 10 cards
> burned off the top of each round would
> indeed be unplayable. I have never seen or
> heard of such a game. 6 (or 10, for that
> matter) cards off the top is no big deal. It
> just means that penetration is not as good
> as it appears, and your true-count
> conversion might have to be adjusted
> slightly (if you're using a true-counted
> system).

> You're welcome.

[Parker]

> is it true that the authors of KO (at least
> one of them) work for a casino or a company
> supplying casinos?
> I read this and some critics on amazon.com
> which put under doubt the performance of KO.

After completing the KO book, Olaf Vancura took a position with Mikohn Gaming, a manufacturer of slot machines, electronic signs, and other casino-related products. AFAIK, he is still associated with them.

Some people see some sort of conspiracy in this. These people also believe that they have been abducted by aliens.

KO was first introduced in 1997 and has been thoroughly (and independently) tested. These days, anyone with a computer can buy software such as CVData or SBA and test it for themselves. THey will find, as everyone else has, that it will get the job done.

Remember, any idiot can post a review on Amazon.com.

[mws]

Is the book "KO Blackjack" all I need?
Is the true count version also included in the book?
Are face down games common in casinos? Is counting cards under these condiitons not extremely difficult?
Do you see the cards on the end or the players lay them on the table face down again?

> After completing the KO book, Olaf Vancura
> took a position with Mikohn Gaming, a
> manufacturer of slot machines, electronic
> signs, and other casino-related products.
> AFAIK, he is still associated with them.

> Some people see some sort of conspiracy in
> this. These people also believe that they
> have been abducted by aliens.

> KO was first introduced in 1997 and has been
> thoroughly (and independently) tested. These
> days, anyone with a computer can buy
> software such as CVData or SBA and test it
> for themselves. THey will find, as everyone
> else has, that it will get the job done.

> Remember, any idiot can post a review on
> Amazon.com.

[Parker]

> Is the book "KO Blackjack" all I
> need?

It covers the basics. Add a copy of Blackjack Attack, 3rd Edition, by Don Schlesinger, and you will pretty much have "all you need."

> Is the true count version also included in
> the book?

No. You'll have to wait for my book for that, which will be published (hopefully) sometime in the spring. Alternatively, you can use the search function on these message boards, as the topic has been discussed several times.

> Are face down games common in casinos?

Yes, in many parts of the USA, not so common in the rest of the world.

> Is
> counting cards under these condiitons not
> extremely difficult?

Not at all. Personally, I find it easier than face-up games, but that may be because I play mostly face-down games.

> Do you see the cards on the end or the
> players lay them on the table face down
> again?

The dealer turns all cards face-up so that the "eye" can see them before they go into the discard tray.

[mws]

for how long do the cards stay face-up at the end of each round in face -down games?
I have not seen face-down game therefore I am asking.
How is it in Las Vegas? - face -up or face-down?

> It covers the basics. Add a copy of
> Blackjack Attack, 3rd Edition, by Don
> Schlesinger, and you will pretty much have
> "all you need."

> No. You'll have to wait for my book for
> that, which will be published (hopefully)
> sometime in the spring. Alternatively, you
> can use the search function on these message
> boards, as the topic has been discussed
> several times.

> Yes, in many parts of the USA, not so common
> in the rest of the world.

> Not at all. Personally, I find it easier
> than face-up games, but that may be because
> I play mostly face-down games.

> The dealer turns all cards face-up so that
> the "eye" can see them before they
> go into the discard tray.

[Parker]

> for how long do the cards stay face-up at
> the end of each round in face -down games?
> I have not seen face-down game therefore I
> am asking.

The usual procedure is for the dealer to turn each player's cards over, pay the bet if the hand is a winner or collect the player's bet if the hand is a loser, and then put the cards in the discard tray. Some places settle all hands before the cards are put in the tray, others put them in as each hand is settled. Either way, there is plenty of opportunity to see the cards.

> How is it in Las Vegas? - face -up or
> face-down?

Single and double deck games are normally dealt face-down, shoe games are dealt face-up. There are a few exceptions. Most of the larger casinos in Las Vegas offer both double deck and shoe games.

BTW, single and double deck games are often referred to as "pitch games" because the dealer holds the deck(s) in his/her hand and "pitches" the cards to the players, as opposed to sliding them out of a shoe and across the table.

[mws]

can I read another blackjack book along with "KO blackjack" or you think it would be confusing for me as a beginner?How about "blackjack secrets"?
which one of the free on-line blackjack simulators do you recommend for practicing?

> The usual procedure is for the dealer to
> turn each player's cards over, pay the bet
> if the hand is a winner or collect the
> player's bet if the hand is a loser, and
> then put the cards in the discard tray. Some
> places settle all hands before the cards are
> put in the tray, others put them in as each
> hand is settled. Either way, there is plenty
> of opportunity to see the cards.

> Single and double deck games are normally
> dealt face-down, shoe games are dealt
> face-up. There are a few exceptions. Most of
> the larger casinos in Las Vegas offer both
> double deck and shoe games.

> BTW, single and double deck games are often
> referred to as "pitch games"
> because the dealer holds the deck(s) in
> his/her hand and "pitches" the
> cards to the players, as opposed to sliding
> them out of a shoe and across the table.

[Parker]

> can I read another blackjack book along with
> "KO blackjack" or you think it
> would be confusing for me as a beginner?

I don't know how your mind works. Personally, I find one book on a topic at a time is all I can handle, although I do simultaneously read books on different topics.

> How
> about "blackjack secrets"?

Wong's Blackjack Secrets is an excellent book, although it does assume that the reader already knows basic strategy and a counting system.

> which one of the free on-line blackjack
> simulators do you recommend for practicing?

I cannot help you here, as I have never used any of them. I bought Casino Verite when it first came out, and have never felt a need for anything else in the way of practice programs.

I can tell you (and anyone serious about advantage play) that you will never, ever find a better way to invest $90 than in the purchase of Casino Verite.

[mws]

what is the difference between OK and KO?
what is KISS?
i have been reading the KO book and I like it but I can`t believe it does not include 4D on the tables. Do you know why?
what is behind the "eye" - experienced counter?

> I don't know how your mind works.
> Personally, I find one book on a topic at a
> time is all I can handle, although I do
> simultaneously read books on different
> topics.

> Wong's Blackjack Secrets is an excellent
> book, although it does assume that the
> reader already knows basic strategy and a
> counting system.

> I cannot help you here, as I have never used
> any of them. I bought Casino Verite when it
> first came out, and have never felt a need
> for anything else in the way of practice
> programs.

> I can tell you (and anyone serious about
> advantage play) that you will never, ever
> find a better way to invest $90 than in the
> purchase of Casino Verite.

[Parker]

> what is the difference between OK and KO?

Norm was unable to include the KO Preferred matrix in Casino Verite due to licensing difficulties. "OK" is just KO with slightly different indices. These are actually simpler than the KO matrix, and don't give up anything in the way of EV.

Of course, if you want KO Preferred exactly, it only takes a few moments to create a custom system based on OK and adjust the indices to KO Preferred.

> what is KISS?

Um, this isn't really the proper forum for that.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :-)

In the context it was used, the KISS counts are a series of unbalanced counts similar to KO, developed by Fred Renzey and described in his excellent book, Blackjack Bluebook II.

> i have been reading the KO book and I like
> it but I can`t believe it does not include
> 4D on the tables. Do you know why?

It is included. See Apppendix VII on page 171.

> what is behind the "eye" -
> experienced counter?

Sometimes. Or someone using counter-detecting software. Or someone totally clueless. Or (expecially in small casinos) nobody except a bank of VCR's.

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