The Phantom: 6/8 DECK PENETRATION ERR

[The Phantom]

Assuming AC/Vegas Strip rules, might someone out there know off-hand (although it's not an off-hand question)in which of these 2 situations would a player have a better Expected Rate of Return? [Assuming just Basic Strategy expectations, I'm aware that both figures must be a negative % experience, but is there much difference?] :

1. A 6 deck shoe w/ 65% penetration, verus

2. An 8 deck shoe w/ 75% penetration

[Parker]

> Assuming AC/Vegas Strip rules, might someone
> out there know off-hand (although it's not
> an off-hand question)in which of these 2
> situations would a player have a better
> Expected Rate of Return? [Assuming just
> Basic Strategy expectations, I'm aware that
> both figures must be a negative %
> experience, but is there much difference?] :

> 1. A 6 deck shoe w/ 65% penetration, verus

> 2. An 8 deck shoe w/ 75% penetration

Penetration is irrelevant if you're not counting. So, with the same rules, the 6D game is better, but not by much. A 6D AC game has a house edge of about .42%, the 8D is around .44%.

BTW, please don't post your subject line in all caps; it is the online equivalent of a screaming headline and makes the board look like the front page of the National Enquirer.

A small thing to ask. :-)

[The Phantom]

No more caps in headlines. Sorry.

Of course I am card counting -- or at least getting better at it. So let me rephrase: Assuming a TC of +3, at which game would you have a better edge? Actually, I don't understand why there ought to be a difference in statistical outcome if TC is +3 or whatever; I am trying to understand where penetration makes a different in casinos that cut off 2 decks from a 6-deck shoe versus cutting off 2 decks from an 8-deck shoe. But if TC makes a big difference in outcome, assume a + 3 TC with a 1-10 spread.

In the percentages you gave (simply Basic Strategy play)

[Don Schlesinger]

> Assuming a TC of +3, at which game would you
> have a better edge?

6-deck game, cut 4, s17, das: Hi-Lo edge at TC = +3 is 1.39%.

8-deck game, cut 6, s17, das: Hi-Lo edge at TC = +3 is 1.36%.

But, I think you're asking the wrong questions.

Don

[The Phantom]

Are you saying that the 6 deck game is better as a rule of thumb; or are you saying that the 6 deck game with 65% penetration is still 0.02% points better than an 8 deck game with 75% penetration?

[Don Schlesinger]

> Are you saying that the 6 deck game is
> better as a rule of thumb; or are you saying
> that the 6 deck game with 65% penetration is
> still 0.02% points better than an 8 deck
> game with 75% penetration?

Strange that you wouldn't read my answer (and Parker's, for that matter) before writing this. Penetration makes no difference to a basic strategy player. For a counter, I gave you an answer.

Don

[The Phantom]

> Strange that you wouldn't read my answer
> (and Parker's, for that matter) before
> writing this. Penetration makes no
> difference to a basic strategy player. For a
> counter, I gave you an answer.

> Don

-------------->

Don,

As to your earlier comment: I sent my last post before I received either of the reply posts, so sorry if the overlap irritated you).

I'm here to learn, and pardon me if I asked a question that is trivial pursuits to a real pro.

As to your comment that I am probably asking the wrong questions, you're undoubtedly right. Remedy:

If my bankroll is still intact at the end of this weekend I will go ahead and order from your RGE catalog your book and 5 or 6 of the most-recommended others. I will study assiduously, and thereafter presumably I'll obtain the answers in self-study and be better able to ask the right questions.

May I assume, by the way, that you got your quick, adept, and specific answer from CSX software that has been mentioned around? For beginner play I assume I'm better off sticking with the conclusions of the book-authors rather than running my own simulations. On the other hand, I hope to take a few junkets to LAS before the end of the year and for that purpose, without the standardization found in AC, the program might be useful. (?)

Presumably you might have been more encouraging about multi-deck play if I had stated a 1-20 spread.

In any case, thanks for the time you've taken to answer.

And [we need some humor here] if I lose my bankroll tonight I'll certainly become, yours truly,

The Phantom

[Don Schlesinger]

> As to your earlier comment: I sent my last
> post before I received either of the reply
> posts, so sorry if the overlap irritated
> you).

No, it's just that I looked at the time stamps and my reply seemed to have come two hours before your post. But, below, Parker explained how that could happen.

> I'm here to learn, and pardon me if I asked
> a question that is trivial pursuits to a
> real pro.

That's never a problem.

> If my bankroll is still intact at the end of
> this weekend I will go ahead and order
> from your RGE catalog your book and 5 or 6
> of the most-recommended others. I will study
> assiduously, and thereafter presumably I'll
> obtain the answers in self-study and be
> better able to ask the right questions.

Good plan!

> May I assume, by the way, that you got your
> quick, adept, and specific answer from CSX
> software that has been mentioned around?

No, as stated in my post, I got my answers from the BJA3 Chapter 10 charts.

> Presumably you might have been more
> encouraging about multi-deck play if I had
> stated a 1-20 spread.

Yes, as long as you can get away with it, the bigger the better.

> In any case, thanks for the time you've
> taken to answer.

You're welocme.

> And [we need some humor here] if I lose my
> bankroll tonight I'll certainly become,
> yours truly,

Naw, you'll do fine. Good luck!

Don

[Sun Runner]

I feel your pain .. but here is the skinny.

These guys are really smart when it comes to BJ. Really smart. Schlesinger, and Parker, and others have posted the same answer to the same questions you are asking for the last million years.

Their patience is an amazing thing to watch .. except in the few times it runs out!!

And if it happens to run out -which is unusual -while posting with you, don't take it personally.

This is a great place to learn about BJ, the intentions are all good, and generally, it is a very professional atmosphere.

If you feel like your question was not answered to your satisfaction, be persistent, but don't take a "poor me I'm just a beginner attitude."

Think about the answers awhile, re-post, and it will eventually become clear.

These guys would not be doing this if they deep down didn't want to help you learn.

Good luck and stick around.

BTW -I'll take a guess at your place on the learning curve and offer this advice. Don't buy BJA3 yet and don't buy 5 or 6 books all at once.

What count system do you use?

[The Phantom]

Sun Runner,

> I feel your pain .. but here is the skinny.

I'm not feeling pain, just a little frustration in the learning curve.

< What counting system do you use?

Simple hi-lo

< I wouldn't recommend buying 5-6 books now...

Possibly you say that because of possible mixed advice from 5-6 different books. Then what 1 or 2 might be best? My major concern at the moment is how to change the BS according to the TC.

N.B. BS = Basic Strategy not BullS--t

[Sun Runner]

> I'm not feeling pain, just a little
> frustration in the learning curve.

Good.

> Simple hi-lo

I would first purchase Wong's "Professional Blackjack." You won't find it at Borders or Barnes and Noble but can be bought here for $20.

It's the far and away best primer for HiLo.

After that, any book by Wong, Snyder, Carlson, Anderson, Humble would be good. Each (most) others will convey a different counting system. Read it, expose yourself to the information in them, but you don't have to learn each system.

I would not read Revere's book yet as it is a classic, but the info is badly dated. (It dosen't really teach you to play BJ as a business anyway!)

HiLo has won it's share of money.

> Possibly you say that because of possible
> mixed advice from 5-6 different books. Then
> what 1 or 2 might be best? My major concern
> at the moment is how to change the BS
> according to the TC.

Those changes are called "indexes." Depending on the system there can be upwards of 150 indexed changes from BS depending based on the TC.

Schlesinger, who you have posted with previously here, carved out 18 specific indexes that gather up approx 75% of the total value of all 150. They are referred to as the Illustrious 18.

Each count system has it's own set of indexes so you'll want to learn the ones for HiLo. Wong's book will have them.

I might have spoken to quickly about BJA3. If you are just getting started, that book is a math lovers dream come true. It is not easy reading.

BUT, it does contain a lot of great concepts and amswers to questions you'll have down the road.

More importantly, it contains the latest and greatest BS information and indexes for HiLo.

> N.B. BS = Basic Strategy not BullS--t

Look to the left and see the "Frequently Asked Questions" drop down. Many abbreviations like 'BS' are explained there along with alot of other good basic stuff.

Good luck.

[Parker]

Apologies to Ken Uston. :-)

If you're using Hi-lo, you need two books:

Professional Blackjack, by Stanford Wong.

Blackjack Attack, 3rd Edition, by Don Schlesinger.

Additional books may enhance your knowledge, but it is difficult to imagine any relevant question regarding blackjack, the Hi-lo count, or card counting that is not answered in one (or both) of these two books.

[V-man]

As for the buying books comments. I suggest buy the books recommended, especially while you can still get Don to sign BJA3 (you'll never regret it!). I understand SunRunner comments about BJA3 book. It's not an easy book to read. You don't read it, you 'learn' it. It'll take many stages through your BJ learning career to understand BJA3. But throughout your learning curve, you'll read and reread BJAx many times.