The Phantom: $5 TABLES ATLANTIC CITY

[The Phantom]

I'd like to share my info. on finding $5 tables in Atlantic City, and hope that others will do likewise:

I have found only 4 of the 11 casinos in AC had $5 tables as of September 2004: Borgata, Sands (4th Floor), Hilton, and Taj Mahal.

Of these, only 1 had a $5 table after 12 noon: Hilton, and this was eventually closed late afternoon when it got crowded and they raised the limit to $10.

Of the other 3, I've only found $5 action during the hours between 4:00 AM - 12:00 Noon.

However, in that I am not constantly peripatetic,
I am hopeful that there are some AC players out there who are willing to contribute their own recent experiences of finding $5 tables, days and times.

[CAPT XII]

>

That is the real reason that the trump dumps are in trouble. The $5 bettor is 50% of casino traffic. The $5 bettor is also 25% of the bottom line. In april the only $5 BJ I saw was one at
Borgata. There were people 5 deep around that table. NONE would play the $15 tables. They had 5
craps tubs manned and 3 inactive-all $15.Two that
were manned were vacant. Borgata is the new big deal in AC. Reminds me of a YUGO.

I'd like to share my info. on finding $5
> tables in Atlantic City, and hope that
> others will do likewise:

> I have found only 4 of the 11 casinos in AC
> had $5 tables as of September 2004: Borgata,
> Sands (4th Floor), Hilton, and Taj Mahal.

> Of these, only 1 had a $5 table after 12
> noon: Hilton, and this was eventually closed
> late afternoon when it got crowded and they
> raised the limit to $10.

> Of the other 3, I've only found $5 action
> during the hours between 4:00 AM - 12:00
> Noon.

> However, in that I am not constantly
> peripatetic,
> I am hopeful that there are some AC players
> out there who are willing to contribute
> their own recent experiences of finding $5
> tables, days and times.

[MJ]

Are these $5 tables available on the weekdays or weekends?

> I'd like to share my info. on finding $5
> tables in Atlantic City, and hope that
> others will do likewise:

> I have found only 4 of the 11 casinos in AC
> had $5 tables as of September 2004: Borgata,
> Sands (4th Floor), Hilton, and Taj Mahal.

> Of these, only 1 had a $5 table after 12
> noon: Hilton, and this was eventually closed
> late afternoon when it got crowded and they
> raised the limit to $10.

> Of the other 3, I've only found $5 action
> during the hours between 4:00 AM - 12:00
> Noon.

> However, in that I am not constantly
> peripatetic,
> I am hopeful that there are some AC players
> out there who are willing to contribute
> their own recent experiences of finding $5
> tables, days and times.

[The Phantom]

MJ,

I'm just a weekend player. Only played 1 weekend in September. That I suppose was my motivation in putting up this post: Have you found different conditions on weekdays?

[The Phantom]

Guys and gals, I'm a little surprised at the paucity of response to this posting.

However, being impressed by the analytic minds of the pro's, I shall attempt to list several possibilities:

A. No beginners play in Atlantic City.

B. No beginners play at $5 tables.

C. Nobody really wants much to share practical

information for free.

D. This post has not been on long enough to be

read and to be responded to.

According to Arnold Stang's Rule of Co-variance as metamorphed by co-efficient scales, I suspect we should exclude A & B.

But if B is true, what has any beginner learned here?

[MJ]

Sorry I don't really play in AC. However, I am surprised they offer $5 tables on weekends as opposed to weekdays. From what I understand they offer poor games anyhow with 8 decks and lousy penetration. I do hear good things about Borgota though. Here is a link to a review of the quality of BJ games offered in AC...hope this helps.

http://bjinsider.com/newsletter_56_acity.shtml

-MJ

> MJ,

> I'm just a weekend player. Only played 1
> weekend in September. That I suppose was my
> motivation in putting up this post: Have you
> found different conditions on weekdays?

[The Phantom]

MJ, [agnficent blackack person: my acronym now for you]

BJ Insider has just gained a subscriber and you have gained my gratitude.

Stuff like this, which I had not known existed, could be a lifesaver.

Just one bit of errata: Hilton did have, late Saturday morning, one $5 table.

A truly helpful post.

On this trip I still have only a few hours to take advantage of the good information, but it should prove invaluable for all future play.

No beginner should be without this newsletter I think. The pros undoubtedly already use it.

Or, as Archimedes put it, "give me a lever long enough, and a fulcrum upon which to rest it, and I shall move the earth." OK, OK, maybe a little over-expectation here.

----------------------->

> Sorry I don't really play in AC. However, I
> am surprised they offer $5 tables on
> weekends as opposed to weekdays. From what I
> understand they offer poor games anyhow with
> 8 decks and lousy penetration. I do hear
> good things about Borgota though. Here is a
> link to a review of the quality of BJ games
> offered in AC...hope this helps.

>
> http://bjinsider.com/newsletter_56_acity.shtml

> -MJ

[Parker]

If you're on a subscribing kick, consider a subscription to TrackJack. This is a continuously updated database of specific casino conditions all over the world (including, of course, Atlantic City). It is reasonably priced ($20 for a 3 mo mebership, $50/year), and like all products from RGE Publishing, carries a money-back guarantee. If you don't feel that TrackJack is worth the money, let us know and your subscription will be cheerfully refunded (actually, I'm not sure if Viktor will really be all that cheerful about it, but he puts on a good act :-)).

Remember, it is profit from TrackJack, book sales, Don's Domain subscriptions, etc., that keep this portion of the website free.

By "free," I mean both free from cost and free from obnoxious blinking ads from online casinos, etc. AdvantagePlayer.com accepts no outside advertising.

[kiosk]

judging by this thread and the 6/8 penetration posted more recently, it seems like you're trying to hi-lo your way to BJ success in AC, and cheaply too. but from what I've analyzed mathematically about the conditions on the east coast, advantage play simply isn't realistic regardless of how much you bet per hand minimum. I'm a green chip flat bettor and can also churn 800 hands an hour at video poker, but I've never convinced myself that card counting is worth the effort in learning and the increased monetary investment and fluctuation.

one thing I should say off the bat is, if you're depending on availability of $5 tables in order to complete your quest, you should seriously consider concentrating on increasing your bankroll instead via everyday-life means first. playing only from 4am to noon on weekends to catch those occasional ultra-low limit tables isn't going to cut it in the long term, considering you're still playing an extremely mediocre SCORE game to begin with. I'm also taking into account that even as early as last week, you still didn't know how to properly play soft 17 according to basic strategy. make sure you know that chart down 100% pat before even opening Stanford's book for the first time.

I'd say only Borgata has a $5-50 table (aka the Borg 'Spike') open consistently at all times, and it is completely full 99% of the time with 10 people standing behind them waiting for one of the seated players to pass out. you should definitely expand your tolerance to include $10 and $15 tables, which are generally available during all times at the three Trump casinos, Wild West, Claridge (beware Sp2 only), resorts, tropicana and (probably) sands. of these, the Borgata and Sands may deal 6 decks instead of 8 even at low limits, which will yield a miniscule benefit, but be sure to physically check the shoe before assuming. Recently, Borgata has converted their tables towards the front entrance to 8 deckers. Also, as a general AC trend, expect BJ conditions to slowly get less player-friendly as casinos begin experimenting with 6:5 single deck games, as well as take advantage of the poker tournament craze and the new "big-shot" player culture which seems to be expandingly rapidly throughout mainstream society. This will further diminish your possibility of finding $5 blackjack tables even at dawn on a tuesday morning.

If you are properly bankrolled and studied enough to truly take advantage of the hi-lo system (I hesitate to believe that you are), then it is probably worth it to spend $200-300 upfront on a plane ticket to Nevada or Mississippi, and tackle some decent games there instead of the jersey shore. A small compromise might be to first practice your skills at the two indian casinos in Connecticut, where the late surrender rule is a small benefit to the player and a decent benefit to the counter. You can probably find $10 tables at Foxwoods new rainmaker expansion section, as well as a single table inside the sports and keno bar in the Pequot tower (though this works very much like the $5-50 table at Borgata). Mohegan Sun is usually no less than $15, but they have 6 deck tables mixed in with the 8 decks (plus those darn CSM's). I've heard Turning Stone in upstate NY has some relatively good games as well, but I've never visited there myself (check trackjack or cbjn and decide for yourself).

As a general rule, the east coast is a nice place to gamble, but not a great place to make money. I heard you subscribed to the BJ insider newsletter, but just so you know, Scoblete's AC reports are still available for free every month. I've been reading their columns since issue #34 and never saw the need to send them money if they weren't forcing me.

[The Phantom]

Kiosk,

It might interest you and other readers to know that this past weekend I found a single-deck game in Atlantic City, at Resorts. $5min-$500 max. Seats available. Except that I didn't play because BJ paid only 6:5 and I didn't know much that downgrades expectation.

Your points may be well taken. But I live in Philadelphia, with a low-cost quick & easy train trip to AC. While still in an initial learning curve, and with a $500 per trip bankroll (& with my current rule of stop play after $500 won or lost, per trip), and 'to play blackjack as a business,' it doesn't make sense to me to seek to go to NV very often.

I'm not sure TrackJack even covers AC -- I've only had a chance to take a very quick look at sample search page for NJ w/o response -- but MAYBE: if the casinos at AC have now begun 1-deck games, as I just seen they have (at Resorts at least), then MAYBE they will eventually go to 2 or 4 deck shoes with the normal 3:2 payout.

Further, even in a 6/8 deck game, if one spreads 1-20, as I in fact have been doing (slowly, not suddeny, but as the TC rises), then I'd guess I'd still have a reasonable expectation. What do you think? (And no, I haven't gotten to reading through expectation charts yet; and I don't own any BJ simulation software.)

[Parker]

> It might interest you and other readers to
> know that this past weekend I found a
> single-deck game in Atlantic City, at
> Resorts. $5min-$500 max. Seats available.
> Except that I didn't play because BJ paid
> only 6:5 and I didn't know much that
> downgrades expectation.

This is not a positive development. The shorted BJ payout is HUGE, increasing the off-the top edge to a whopping 1.58%!! That is more than three times the edge of the worst 8 deck shoes in AC, which have a house edge of around .48%.

Do not waste your money on this rip-off carnival game.

> Your points may be well taken. But I live in
> Philadelphia, with a low-cost quick &
> easy train trip to AC. While still in an
> initial learning curve, and with a $500 per
> trip bankroll (& with my current rule of
> stop play after $500 won or lost, per trip),
> and 'to play blackjack as a business,' it
> doesn't make sense to me to seek to go to NV
> very often.

So go less often, and play more when you're there. Life is too short to play bad blackjack.

> I'm not sure TrackJack even covers AC --
> I've only had a chance to take a very quick
> look at sample search page for NJ w/o
> response -- but MAYBE: if the casinos at AC
> have now begun 1-deck games, as I just seen
> they have (at Resorts at least), then MAYBE
> they will eventually go to 2 or 4 deck shoes
> with the normal 3:2 payout.

Don't hold your breath. BTW, TrackJack does cover AC, along with most of the rest of the world.

> Further, even in a 6/8 deck game, if one
> spreads 1-20, as I in fact have been doing
> (slowly, not suddeny, but as the TC rises),
> then I'd guess I'd still have a reasonable
> expectation. What do you think? (And no, I
> haven't gotten to reading through
> expectation charts yet; and I don't own any
> BJ simulation software.)

You would be playing a winning game, but your expection would be very small. The problem is that the poor pen means that you won't see positive TC's very often. Wonging out of negative shoes would help, but AC is usually too crowded for that at the low minimum tables.

[The Phantom]

> You would be playing a winning game, but
> your expection would be very small. The
> problem is that the poor pen means that you
> won't see positive TC's very often. Wonging
> out of negative shoes would help, but AC is
> usually too crowded for that at the low
> minimum tables.

All right then (and I hope this question doesn't try your patience) but how would your answer change about expectation if spread was changed from 1-20 to 1-100? (Heat be damned.)

BTW, keep up the great work w/ your Forum. You've certainly gained me as an RGE customer.

[kiosk]

> It might interest you and other readers to
> know that this past weekend I found a
> single-deck game in Atlantic City, at
> Resorts. $5min-$500 max. Seats available.
> Except that I didn't play because BJ paid
> only 6:5 and I didn't know much that
> downgrades expectation.

When I reported on the Resorts game last month on the Green Chip board, it was $10-500 limits and the tables were about half full on a saturday afternoon. I noted that a lot of people passed by and watched, but few people actually sat down to play. There might have been a few people who knew about the bad 6:5 naturals payout, but i'd say the majority of people had never seen a face down, hand held 21 game on the east coast before, and had no idea how to play properly.

I'm not surprised that they may have lowered it down to $5 minimums, given that they couldn't even attract a full table at $10. But this game is virtually useless for someone trying to make money via card counting, or any other system for that matter (never mind that Resorts hits on soft 17, takes no hole card and does not allow wonging mid-deck on top of the 6:5). This is strictly a "fun" game and I would "play" it only at Resorts as the three Trump stores were demanding $25 minimums on my last visit.

> Your points may be well taken. But I live in
> Philadelphia, with a low-cost quick &
> easy train trip to AC. While still in an
> initial learning curve, and with a $500 per
> trip bankroll (& with my current rule of
> stop play after $500 won or lost, per trip),
> and 'to play blackjack as a business,' it
> doesn't make sense to me to seek to go to NV
> very often.

You might be missing the point of my first reponse to you in this thread. If you are serious about trying to make money at blackjack in the long term, then you cannot get by spreading 1-20 units with a $500 bankroll on a game that has a maximum SCORE potential of about only 20.00-25.00. Your risk of ruin is too high in that you will tap out more often even while playing a positive EV condition. Believe me, if a good game ever popped up on the east coast, I would be ready to commit $10-20K minimum from my savings to give it a shot. But the sooner you can accept the reality of the math involved, the better. Save up more money, practice your skills, and hit a real game in downtown vegas or tunica.

> I'm not sure TrackJack even covers AC --
> I've only had a chance to take a very quick
> look at sample search page for NJ w/o
> response -- but MAYBE: if the casinos at AC
> have now begun 1-deck games, as I just seen
> they have (at Resorts at least), then MAYBE
> they will eventually go to 2 or 4 deck shoes
> with the normal 3:2 payout.

Atlantic City is the second largest gambling jurisdiction in the United States - both Trackjack and CBJN definitely cover all 12 casinos on the boardwalk and marina. If I was to give unbiased opinion about both sites, I'd say that CBJN updates its data more diligently, but Trackjack is much easier to read and arrange the actual results. Most people I'd gather would want to combine info from both lists to make their final playing decisions.

AC is only dealing single deckers because of the increased house edge of the 6:5 payout. They have no reason whatsoever to improve the odds on their shoe games, because counters can't realistically beat them and the affulent northeast ploppies who throw down black chips without ever picking up a blackjack book will pad their profits for years to come. Even if someone decides to start real 3:2 pitch games in this area, I doubt they will have decent enough penetration for any AP to take advantage of. Just be glad that CSM's have stayed out of new jersey up to this point.

> Further, even in a 6/8 deck game, if one
> spreads 1-20, as I in fact have been doing
> (slowly, not suddeny, but as the TC rises),
> then I'd guess I'd still have a reasonable
> expectation. What do you think? (And no, I
> haven't gotten to reading through
> expectation charts yet; and I don't own any
> BJ simulation software.)

You can try plugging in some numbers at the www.bjstats.com site. Typical AC rules would be 8 decks, depth "good" (1.5/8 decks), S17 DAS. with a 1-20 spread and Hi-Lo I18 Fab4, you're looking at an EV of 0.99% over the course of approximately 44,313 hands of play. does that sound like your $500 can handle that? probably not.

Look, there are a lot of people who go to AC every weekend with $500 thinking they are going to win some money. But most of those people are playing slot machines. However, compared to the strategy that you're proposing, at least their money and playing time will last longer.