I have decided to backcount for a while before sitting down to play. Playing only at TC >= +2 and wonging out when the TC <= -2. The only problem is it gets alittle uncomfortable if I backcount for too long. Has anyone out there tried this strategy, what kind of results can be expected, and how have you camouflaged it?
Now you know how Al Capone felt standing outside his first bank.
Many times I feel like I'm on stage all alone.
The fact is you do have to blend in, but it's not all about you. The dealers have to deal and the pit guys have other things to do besides watching you -although looking for you is one of their tasks.
BJA2 has a good chapter on back-counting. I'm guessing BJA3 will also.
Many times I'll just walk up to the table next to a guy (with a vacant spot) ask him (where the dealer can hear) "mind if I just watch awhile?" Usually they say sure. All the while I try to act un-informed and then might casually start betting when it "feels right."
I never sit down. It is to cumbersome and when it is time to leave, you don't want to make a spectacle of yourself getting up.
Always have chips ready -from some where else. Be ready to bet and have them in your hand. Hurriedly digging them out of your pocket can turn into a fiasco when you finally see a count you like.
An alternative is to get in on the beginning -flat bet the minimum awhile -and if the shoe dosen't start cooking, get up and leave. I usually give it two decks or so.
> BJA2 has a good chapter on back-counting.
> I'm guessing BJA3 will also.
Same Chapter 1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! :-)
Don
What's the best thing for a non-card counter to do when someone is obviously back-counting and wonging-in on their table? (What's best for the non-card counter, please.) Pull their hand, stay in, minimum bet, double their bet? Just wondering, it happens to me all the time. Thanks in advance.
> What's the best thing for a non-card counter
> to do when someone is obviously
> back-counting and wonging-in on their table?
> (What's best for the non-card counter,
> please.) Pull their hand, stay in, minimum
> bet, double their bet? Just wondering, it
> happens to me all the time. Thanks in
> advance.
Do whatever you like. If you're not counting, then the wonger has absolutely no effect on your game, at least in the short term.
If you want to make the wonger happy, immediately leave the table when someone wongs in.
OTOH, if you are completely certain that the person entering the game mid-shoe is indeed a card counter/wonger, and you have confidence in his/her abilities, why not come along for the ride? Increase your bet.
> OTOH, if you are completely certain that the
> person entering the game mid-shoe is indeed
> a card counter/wonger, and you have
> confidence in his/her abilities, why not
> come along for the ride? Increase your bet.
I would caution against this. If this person is blatant and/or persistent enough, eventually he will be pegged. And if you raise your bets in tandem with his, you're screwed. Griffin and its related ilk are rife with innocent, unskilled players that were suspected of calling in BPs.
I err on the paranoid side at all times, so you can take the above with a grain of salt. When I jump my bets the machismo of other guys at the player will often compel them to follow suit. This kind of thing happens all to time to regular players. I would just cringe at the idea of risking association with someone Wonging into your table.
Good Cards,
V
Thank you for your reply and the good advice. I don't know who or what Griffin is, though?
To be honest, I don't suffer from machismo betting impulses, (just the opposite, which has been my problem, even when the dealer is pushing green at me).
I also reckon I stand zero chance of being banned from my casino at this point, no matter what I do. They know me too well, and though large bet spreads would be out of character for me and not go unnoticed, they'd probably let me have my way...for a while.
So...I've got great cover. That's why I need to make a big play with a new strategy...and so far, counting isn't going so well.
Thanks again.
> I would caution against this. If this person
> is blatant and/or persistent enough,
> eventually he will be pegged. And if you
> raise your bets in tandem with his, you're
> screwed. Griffin and its related ilk are
> rife with innocent, unskilled players that
> were suspected of calling in BPs.
> I err on the paranoid side at all times, so
> you can take the above with a grain of salt.
> When I jump my bets the machismo of other
> guys at the player will often compel them to
> follow suit. This kind of thing happens all
> to time to regular players. I would just
> cringe at the idea of risking association
> with someone Wonging into your table.
> Good Cards,
> V
> Thank you for your reply and the good
> advice. I don't know who or what Griffin is,
> though?
Griffin Detective Agency. They identify cheaters and skilled players for casinos, collect the information, and circulate this information to casinos who subscribe to their service. Griffin has also become a verb - as in, to be Griffin'd. In this case, it means that you've been "caught" and your photo (taken from a surveillance camera, usually) and any name and/or alias the casino has on you is now in the Griffin database for other casinos to use as "evidence" that you are a counter and no longer welcome to play BJ there. Also known as "Pure Evil."
The Griffin flyers will contain info on all kinds of cheaters - outright slot machine theft, past-posting, etc. Griffin also covers all of the games, not just BJ. But, when it comes to BJ, they lose their minds (as if they actually had any), and spread info on anyone they think is counting - even players who just happen to be winning a lot. It's a ridiculous notion to think they have the right to spread this info just because a player uses his or her noggin but, as I said, they're clueless morons.
Bettie
Bettie, thanks so much for this information. While I've read (here?) that my casino doesn't subscribe, I guess I should be concerned, as the pit, dealers, and players I play with regularly have often remarked that they thought I was a counter, (despite my grumpy rebuttals and losses).
Can you, (or anyone) tell me how a service of this kind operates without running afoul of defamation suits? (Truth, being of course, the ulitmate defense to such a suit.) Do they give notice to persons listed? Or is it just a gossip sheet run by PIs with no legal recourse for the person listed who's been harmed? Just wondering, and thanks in advance for the info.
> Griffin Detective Agency. They identify
> cheaters and skilled players for casinos,
> collect the information, and circulate this
> information to casinos who subscribe to
> their service. Griffin has also become a
> verb - as in, to be Griffin'd. In this case,
> it means that you've been "caught"
> and your photo (taken from a surveillance
> camera, usually) and any name and/or alias
> the casino has on you is now in the Griffin
> database for other casinos to use as
> "evidence" that you are a counter
> and no longer welcome to play BJ there. Also
> known as "Pure Evil."
> The Griffin flyers will contain info on all
> kinds of cheaters - outright slot machine
> theft, past-posting, etc. Griffin also
> covers all of the games, not just BJ. But,
> when it comes to BJ, they lose their minds
> (as if they actually had any), and spread
> info on anyone they think is counting - even
> players who just happen to be winning a lot.
> It's a ridiculous notion to think they have
> the right to spread this info just because a
> player uses his or her noggin but, as I
> said, they're clueless morons.
> Bettie
> Bettie, thanks so much for this information.
> While I've read (here?) that my casino
> doesn't subscribe, I guess I should be
> concerned, as the pit, dealers, and players
> I play with regularly have often remarked
> that they thought I was a counter, (despite
> my grumpy rebuttals and losses).
Just being thought to be a counter won't normally get you into Griffin. You have to be betting fairly high stakes, and/or be thought to be part of a counting team. Usually. Or be seen in a casino with someone matching those criteria.
> Can you, (or anyone) tell me how a service
> of this kind operates without running afoul
> of defamation suits? (Truth, being of
> course, the ulitmate defense to such a
> suit.) Do they give notice to persons
> listed? Or is it just a gossip sheet run by
> PIs with no legal recourse for the person
> listed who's been harmed? Just wondering,
> and thanks in advance for the info.
Griffin does not share any information with anyone except subscribers, certainly not the poor guy being listed.
Many people (myself included) feel that the whole operation is blatantly illegal, and there are indeed several lawsuits working their way through the legal system.
Truth is, Griffin is a scam being perpetrated on the casinos. I am aware of many high stakes pros who are in Griffin (some several times), and none of them consider it more than a minor inconvenience. They are all still actively playing blackjack in casinos.
Thanks, Parker, for the info. Off the top of my head, I can certainly think of several (legal) problems with this kind of "service". Are the cases you mentioned in Vegas and AC? Do you have any details, (party names, etc.?) If not, maybe I'll just run a search. Thanks again.
> Just being thought to be a counter won't
> normally get you into Griffin. You have to
> be betting fairly high stakes, and/or be
> thought to be part of a counting team.
> Usually. Or be seen in a casino with someone
> matching those criteria.
> Griffin does not share any information with
> anyone except subscribers, certainly not the
> poor guy being listed.
> Many people (myself included) feel that the
> whole operation is blatantly illegal, and
> there are indeed several lawsuits working
> their way through the legal system.
> Truth is, Griffin is a scam being
> perpetrated on the casinos. I am aware of
> many high stakes pros who are in Griffin
> (some several times), and none of them
> consider it more than a minor inconvenience.
> They are all still actively playing
> blackjack in casinos.
> Thanks, Parker, for the info. Off the top of
> my head, I can certainly think of several
> (legal) problems with this kind of
> "service". Are the cases you
> mentioned in Vegas and AC? Do you have any
> details, (party names, etc.?) If not, maybe
> I'll just run a search. Thanks again.
Sorry, I'm not at liberty to divulge any details.
> Do whatever you like. If you're not
> counting, then the wonger has absolutely no
> effect on your game, at least in the short
> term.
Thanks, Parker. I figured that would be the answer -- no effect.
> If you want to make the wonger happy,
> immediately leave the table when someone
> wongs in.
No one's happy when I leave the table,Why would a wonger be? (Seriously wondering.)
The net effect of me pulling my hand for the rest of the shoe *seems* to be that every one wins the rest of the shoe, and I'm stuck with my earlier losses for that shoe. The short term effect *seems* to be that when I stay in, I end up losing the rest of my hands.
> OTOH, if you are completely certain that the
> person entering the game mid-shoe is indeed
> a card counter/wonger, and you have
> confidence in his/her abilities, why not
> come along for the ride? Increase your bet.
I think wongers are easy to identify in my casino. It's a relatively small place with low heat, (except during swing shift). It's only skilled players who stand and backcount, (everyone else rushes in) and these new guys, well, I can never be sure enough of their abilities to risk an increased wager on my (now small) bankroll.
Thanks for your reply.
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