Steve Horwitz: Red Chip Play and The Orleans

[Steve Horwitz]

Life gets me to Las Vegas once a year, and my annual visit comes in May, which means that I?m just starting to rub the rust off my Knock Out skills, am returning to sites like this, and trying to make a few preliminary decisions. I will order the May version of CBJN?s spreadsheet on conditions.
I hope you can answer a few questions even if I?m a mere red chip player (last year when I posed some questions to somebody on the Green Chip board, when he discovered that my top bets wouldn?t be higher than $40 or $50, I basically got told to get lost).
First, is there any truth to the view associated with Bill Zender that red chip players don?t have to worry about heat? That?s not been my experience, but perhaps I start off a bit paranoid having gotten backed off once at Circus Circus in Reno (maybe lack of heat only applies to larger stores and not grind joints like CC?).
Second, last year we stayed at The Orleans, and enjoyed our rooms (meals were poor). I did most of my playing there (DD), and was extraordinarily lucky. Over a three-night stay I doubled my $1500 bankroll (sometime spent at Binion?s and at Charlie?s on Boulder). The Orleans was not a top-rated place to play according to CBJN but it worked for me. I?d prefer to stay there again, and concentrate my play. Is that a mistake either because the place is really not that good for small potatoes counters or because it?s better to play away from where you are staying?
The problem for me with the CBJN data is that you can?t get a seat-at-the-table sense of how the conditions translate into play. Any comments would be welcome.

[Ouchez]

> The problem for me with the CBJN data is
> that you can?t get a seat-at-the-table sense
> of how the conditions translate into play.
> Any comments would be welcome.

I think of a *line* drawn in the *summer* sand.
Cross that line, I think you will be happy.

Regards,
Ouchez.

[Hal Jordan]

I don't think that you need to fear being barred while playing reds, but there are several joints which will back you off. Due to their lack of mathematical knowledge, poor judgement gets the better of their pit. I have seen players backed off for winning a couple hundred within fifteen minutes (betting reds exclusively). The Pit doesn't necessarily know how it is being done, they just fear that they will look like a fool if they are fleeced on their shift.

I wouldn't suggest worrying too much about heat, but I would also suggest to play up your act. It doesn't take much of an act to cover red. I also suggest staying somewhere different than you play. I find it very refreshing to have a home base where I plan on not playing.

May the rust dissipate with ease,
HJ

[Parker]

> Life gets me to Las Vegas once a year, and
> my annual visit comes in May, which means
> that I?m just starting to rub the rust off
> my Knock Out skills, am returning to sites
> like this, and trying to make a few
> preliminary decisions. I will order the May
> version of CBJN?s spreadsheet on conditions.

Alternatively (or in addition) to CBJN, you might consider a 3 mo. subscription to TrackJack for $20.

> I hope you can answer a few questions even
> if I?m a mere red chip player (last year
> when I posed some questions to somebody on
> the Green Chip board, when he discovered
> that my top bets wouldn?t be higher than $40
> or $50, I basically got told to get lost).

This is the beginner's page. Red chip bettors are welcome. People who have yet to place a bet are welcome, providing that they are here to learn.

> First, is there any truth to the view
> associated with Bill Zender that red chip
> players don?t have to worry about heat?

Up to a point. A few low roller places sweat red action, and there are a handful of sweatshops that sweat anyone who looks like they know what they are doing, regardless of bet size. Most places ignore anyone whose max bet is a green chip or two.

On a couple of occasions I've seen someone betting red get the tap simply because they were so blatantly, painfully obviously counting that the pit felt that they had to take action to avoid looking like complete idiots. Hopefully that's not you.

> That?s not been my experience, but perhaps I
> start off a bit paranoid having gotten
> backed off once at Circus Circus in Reno
> (maybe lack of heat only applies to larger
> stores and not grind joints like CC?).

Reno is a little different. It is mostly a red chip action sort of town, expecially CC. Also, the pit critters there know that the game is very playable, and tend to watch more closely.

> Second, last year we stayed at The Orleans,
> and enjoyed our rooms (meals were poor). I
> did most of my playing there (DD), and was
> extraordinarily lucky. Over a three-night
> stay I doubled my $1500 bankroll (sometime
> spent at Binion?s and at Charlie?s on
> Boulder). The Orleans was not a top-rated
> place to play according to CBJN but it
> worked for me. I?d prefer to stay there
> again, and concentrate my play. Is that a
> mistake either because the place is really
> not that good for small potatoes counters or
> because it?s better to play away from where
> you are staying?

Coast properties (Orleans is a Coast property) have a notorious reputation for being sweatshops. However, as a red chip bettor I assume that you're not getting the room comped, and I never heard of anyone getting thrown out of a paid room for counting cards. Worst case scenario should be that you get the "Any game in the house except blackjack" speech.

> The problem for me with the CBJN data is
> that you can?t get a seat-at-the-table sense
> of how the conditions translate into play.
> Any comments would be welcome.

Keep in mind that CBJN, trackjack, or any database of conditions simply provides a snapshot of the conditions one person observed on one particular day on one shift. Things can and do vary by day, shift and individual dealer. The databases provide a starting point, but there still is no substitute for doing some legwork.

[Steve Horwitz]

> I think of a *line* drawn in the *summer*
> sand.
> Cross that line, I think you will be happy.

> Regards,
> Ouchez.

Thanks for the advice, both the factual and the psychological. As Yogi Berra noted, when you come to a fork in the road, take it. I guess that's what (T)ouchez is suggesting.
I've also signed up for Trackjack. One question about both Trackjack and the CBJN product. Since I presume the guys who control the rules and playing conditions at the clubs can read, why isn't sharing of information on Trackjack and CBJN about conditions a self-regulating system? If conditions are noticeably better at Club X than at its peers, why shouldn't Club X adjust its playing conditions? No need to change rules, just reduce penetration or shuffle-up sooner. Or will Club X just be more alert to a tide of advantage players drawn to its tables because one site or another has put a halo around its name?

[Parker]

> I've also signed up for Trackjack. One
> question about both Trackjack and the CBJN
> product. Since I presume the guys who
> control the rules and playing conditions at
> the clubs can read, why isn't sharing of
> information on Trackjack and CBJN about
> conditions a self-regulating system? If
> conditions are noticeably better at Club X
> than at its peers, why shouldn't Club X
> adjust its playing conditions? No need to
> change rules, just reduce penetration or
> shuffle-up sooner. Or will Club X just be
> more alert to a tide of advantage players
> drawn to its tables because one site or
> another has put a halo around its name?

Both services merely report data, it is up to the reader to interpret it and decide what constitutes a good or great game. Casinos are not rated as to the quality of the game. CBJN has even discontinued their "10 favorite places to play BJ" feature.

Besides, casino managers aren't idiots (okay, there are a few exceptions). When they offer a game that is attractive to counters, they know it, and are prepared to take measures to protect the game. Expect to encounter some heat at these places.

[Ouchez]

> Thanks for the advice, both the factual and
> the psychological. As Yogi Berra noted, when
> you come to a fork in the road, take it. I
> guess that's what (T)ouchez is suggesting.

as a code breaker would examine it. It would suit you to a *T*. Made to order to your needs.
A *wealth* of opportunity.

Regards,
Ouchez.

[Brick Waller]

Very odd question you ask. Club X probably enjoys making more money,no need for adjustment,makes sense to me,no?

> Thanks for the advice, both the factual and
> the psychological. As Yogi Berra noted, when
> you come to a fork in the road, take it. I
> guess that's what (T)ouchez is suggesting.
> I've also signed up for Trackjack. One
> question about both Trackjack and the CBJN
> product. Since I presume the guys who
> control the rules and playing conditions at
> the clubs can read, why isn't sharing of
> information on Trackjack and CBJN about
> conditions a self-regulating system? If
> conditions are noticeably better at Club X
> than at its peers, why shouldn't Club X
> adjust its playing conditions? No need to
> change rules, just reduce penetration or
> shuffle-up sooner. Or will Club X just be
> more alert to a tide of advantage players
> drawn to its tables because one site or
> another has put a halo around its name?

[Brick Waller]

How in the world did Steve's post get over 500 hits!? or should I say why in world?

[Parker]

> How in the world did Steve's post get over
> 500 hits!? or should I say why in world?

I can't account for people's reading taste. However, the number does seem totally out of line with the rest of the thread.

Someone may have simply repeatedly clicked on the post and driven the count up. If so, that someone is desperately in need of a life.

It could simply be a glitch in the WebBBS software, which, while an excellent program overall, is not totally bug-free.

[Dreamer]

This is the normal way of increasing your post hit rate

Maybe someone linked that post from some distant/private board?

> I can't account for people's reading taste.
> However, the number does seem totally out of
> line with the rest of the thread.

> Someone may have simply repeatedly clicked
> on the post and driven the count up. If so,
> that someone is desperately in need of a
> life.

> It could simply be a glitch in the WebBBS
> software, which, while an excellent program
> overall, is not totally bug-free.