Mr. Ed: What's wrong with Foxwoods/MS

[Norm Wattenberger]

Absolutely, assuming shoes and busy tables (which you were) and no Wonging (next to impossible in Foxwoods.) Heads-up or pitch games are different.

> You are correct. I've played played shoes
> for well over an hour many times, before
> making a significant bet. I cant imagine a
> sweaty casino stalking a ploppy(or counter)
> for hours untill they finally raise a
> bet,what a waste of time and energy.

> Nevertheless you'll hear imposters,casino
> trolls,wannabe card
> counters,surveilliance(DV Cellini)and others
> claim if you are a pro counter you'll be
> made out in 10 minutes if the pit and crew
> are experienced,what a JOKE.

[Ed Tice]

But Norm Boss,

Isn't it better if we are Wonging out? I agree wonging in is a bit tricky if they see you backcounting they have your attention. But I Wong out too if there are multiple tables. I think this is *harder* for surveillance.

If they want to catch a guy who Wongs out at some count, goes to the bathroom, and then picks another table, they would have to rewind a LOT of tape, even if they could remember what table you were at and when. If not, they'd have to rewind all of it to track your play.

So isn't a bit of Wonging out even better when testing your patience against that of surveillance?

Ed

> Absolutely, assuming shoes and busy tables
> (which you were) and no Wonging (next to
> impossible in Foxwoods.) Heads-up or pitch
> games are different.

[Ed Tice]

I think the worst problem I ever had "camping out" (three hours at the 8 deckers) was when the pit boss asked a dealer if I had bought any more chips and the dealer told her no. Ever since then, I have been ratholing red chips. I hear lots of talk about the tables "adding up." Maybe the know where the purples go, maybe even black, but there's no way anybody can notice the red chips I'm ratholing in the bathroom! I mean people are tipping with those and they go in the toke box! So ever since then when playing shoes, I have ratholed red chips in the bathroom. Am I missing something here? I dont see why I couldn't play shoes at a casino for 2-3 hours 2x a week at the same casino as long I can keep my spread down.

I always hear of ridiculous spreads needed in order to beat games. I don't know what people's goals are, but if you find even decent games, learn some play indices and can be patient you can achieve acceptable results against shoes without crazy 20:1 bet spreads. Against AC rules I can achieve 1 betting uint / hr win rate with only a 6:1 spread... 8:1 on the 8 deckers. This assumes Wonging out at low counts, but not Wonging in. I realize that the SCORE is fairly low (18 or so with N0 50,000) which will scare some players off... but when you can camp out and don't need any cover betting at all, it seems a whole lot nicer to me, and you dont have to worry about the pit. The only "cover" I use is that I don't "late bet", there's always something in my circle... if the count is bordelrine favorable, I'll stick with the one unit bet... if its a favorable count, I'll round up when betting (yes I know higher RoR).

I sometimes question whether I am missing important parts of the game or whether I just need to filter what I hear more aggressively.

I'll be in AC with my 6:1 or 8:1 spread next month unless I find a reason not to!

Ed

> Absolutely, assuming shoes and busy tables
> (which you were) and no Wonging (next to
> impossible in Foxwoods.) Heads-up or pitch
> games are different.

[Norm Wattenberger]

The problem with surreptitiously rat-holing is that a decent PB will know more about the contents of your pocket than you. They may not know how to play BJ or count cards. But, they know where the money goes. If your bets are lower than others at the table, you may be OK. And expect probably OK in AC playing red.

[Norm Wattenberger]

Yes. But the question was about Foxwoods and the problem there is the crowding making Wonging difficult. Unfortunately, the anti-casino crowd has managed to block any additinal casinos in Connecticut and has now turned their efforts to blocking any future expansion of Foxwoods and the Sun.

[SOTSOG]

IF a casino spends any effort trying to catch a red chipper counting at an 8 deck game, they are wasting their time.
Just one pay-off error to a purple chip bet exceeds the damage you could do to the bottom line. If you get heat playing red chips, laugh in their face, you have just met an idiot.

Nothing wrong with what you are doing, but if you are getting 1 unit per hour, at the red chip level, I can make more money working at McDonalds and that would be more consistent and dependable.

Have fun, but I think a lot of the posts you read about heat and counter-measures, etc. are from people who are betting more than red chips and spreading a lot more than 1:6, in order to make REAL money (and make even more money to cushion from the downswings). Apart from the ones that, you have already figured out, are from wannabes and nuts.

[Sun Runner]

> Nothing wrong with what you are doing, but
> if you are getting 1 unit per hour, at the
> red chip level, I can make more money
> working at McDonalds and that would be more
> consistent and dependable.

But a lot less fun.

Of course you can. And you will have learned to work at McDonald's for the rest of your life.

Hopefully someone grinding out minimum wage BJ will not be doing it forever. There is a difference.

[Ed Tice]

I'm just trying to make a few extra $ in order to subsidize my graduate degree! I can collect unemployment and study, but not if I take any job. But if I play BJ, its not considered a job and so I don't lose unemployment or financial aid benefits.

Besides, counting is fun. A lot more fun than any other low-wage job.

I am far from an expert at this and I'm happy to grind out some small profits until I improve. If I find that my game isn't so strong as I think and I lose a few units, I'd rather them be small than large units.

Maybe one day I'll be hitting the casinos for a few hundred k a year, but for now, I'm happy with my $10/hr tax free while having fun.

Ed

> But a lot less fun.

> Of course you can. And you will have learned
> to work at McDonald's for the rest of your
> life.

> Hopefully someone grinding out minimum wage
> BJ will not be doing it forever. There is a
> difference.

[Mike C]

> What is wrong with Foxwoods/Mohegan Sun?

> The rules seem reasonable: 0.42% house
> advantage.

> Pen is not terrible: 75%.

> Are 8 decks that horrible?

> Is there any heat? (I've never felt any)

> Now, if you tell me it's always crowded and
> it's very boring playing 8 decks, I'll
> understand. But help me out, I feel like I'm
> missing out on the joke because I don't see
> what's so bad about Foxwoods.

> Thanks

I made a trip up to Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun earlier this month, and I can tell you that the main problems I had with them were the high table limits (most tables were $50 min. and up, very few were $25 and none were less), Mohegan Sun had automatic reshufflers on over 1/2 the tables I saw, and it was *extremely* crowded. I'll be sticking with Atlantic City for now...