Mr. Ed: What's wrong with Foxwoods/MS

[Mr. Ed]

What is wrong with Foxwoods/Mohegan Sun?

The rules seem reasonable: 0.42% house advantage.

Pen is not terrible: 75%.

Are 8 decks that horrible?

Is there any heat? (I've never felt any)

Now, if you tell me it's always crowded and it's very boring playing 8 decks, I'll understand. But help me out, I feel like I'm missing out on the joke because I don't see what's so bad about Foxwoods.

Thanks

[SOTSOG]

Life is too short to play 8 decks.

[Parker]

East coast is a bit outside my turf, but a couple of quick comments that would apply to 8 deck shoes in general.

> What is wrong with Foxwoods/Mohegan Sun?

> The rules seem reasonable: 0.42% house
> advantage.

Not great, but okay.

> Pen is not terrible: 75%.

Two full decks cut off? If that's not terrible, I'd hate to see terrible.

> Are 8 decks that horrible?

Terrible, horrible, whatever. :-)

> Is there any heat? (I've never felt any)

> Now, if you tell me it's always crowded and
> it's very boring playing 8 decks, I'll
> understand. But help me out, I feel like I'm
> missing out on the joke because I don't see
> what's so bad about Foxwoods.

8 deck shoes are playable, but you really need two things: Decent pen (not more than 1.5 decks cut off), and conditions that are uncrowded enough that you can back-count the first couple of decks before jumping in.

Oh, and one more thing: lots of patience.

[Greasy John]

that inside every check is a microchip which records the amount of every every bet, and bets can then be evaluated according to the count. Eeek!

[Rhubarb]

> East coast is a bit outside my turf, but a
> couple of quick comments that would apply to
> 8 deck shoes in general.

> Not great, but okay.

> Two full decks cut off? If that's not
> terrible, I'd hate to see terrible.

> Terrible, horrible, whatever. :-)

> 8 deck shoes are playable, but you really
> need two things: Decent pen (not more than
> 1.5 decks cut off), and conditions that are
> uncrowded enough that you can back-count the
> first couple of decks before jumping in.

> Oh, and one more thing: lots of patience.

Interesting...(with regards to 8 deck play, not Foxwoods)
What if you can spread 1:20 units with no to little heat. Would that alter things?

[j11]

You wrote about Foxwoods -

that inside every check is a microchip which records the amount of every every bet, and bets
can then be evaluated according to the count.
Eeek!

My response -

Wrong. Foxwoods does not use that technology. It is too expensive now for the quantity of chips and readers that would have purchased for that casino, confusion could be caused by the use of a magnetic device to demagnitize the chips (which the casino would still have to honor), and the technology does not have a successful track record in enough high-volume casinos to justify implementing it - much like the vaunted facial recognition processes tested for implementation in Homeland Security with test results so dismal that even the Homeland Security Department would not waste money to purchase them. Casinos do not usually execute wholesale purchases of leading-edge technology. They let other corporations serve as the alpha and beta test sites and the initial, full-implementation sites. After the products are proven and the price-points drop drastically, the casinos will make wholesale purchases for implementation. An example is the coinless slot machine process. Some casinos have implemented the systems on some or all of their machines, but one casino, in a deal with IGT, is making a massive purchase of new slot machines but funded the research and development of their own devices to be installed in the IGT machines, because they found no devices currently on the market meeting their performance standards, never-mind their cost standards.

[Ed Tice]

> Oh, and one more thing: lots of patience.

I am only a hobbyist (RED) player and I'm sure that things are different at higher levels, but...

If I need a lot of patience to play 8 deckers (and I have a lot of patience), doesn't anybody who wants to flag me as a counter need a lot of patience too? I mean if I flat bet through two shoes (maybe wonging out when the count is low)... finally on the third I get my big bets out and somebody looks at me.... now if they want to flag me as a counter, they are going to have to do quite a bit of work.

If they want to go back and look at my old play they are going to have to rewind a LOT of tape (especially if I've been table hopping). If they want to watch me, they are going to have to sit and watch for a few more shoes before I get a chance to make more big bets... and again, I might move tables a bit.

It seems to me that this could become more of a batle of patience rather than anything else... which doesn't bother me...

But of course, I also play chess!

So my thinking has always been.. with 8 deckers, the money comes slowly, but you have almost no chance of getting made as a counter.

Can you explain to me the error of my ways?

[Ed Tice]

I don't know anything about Foxwoods. But I do know that mindplay claims that you dont' need any magnetic anything in your chips to use that system. It can work with the regular casino chips. This was from the mindplay web site, not anything I heard through the grapevine.

You do need special cards though.

http://www.mindplay.biz/products/blackjack.shtml

> You wrote about Foxwoods -

> that inside every check is a microchip which
> records the amount of every every bet, and
> bets
> can then be evaluated according to the
> count.
> Eeek!

> My response -

> Wrong. Foxwoods does not use that
> technology. It is too expensive now for the
> quantity of chips and readers that would
> have purchased for that casino, confusion
> could be caused by the use of a magnetic
> device to demagnitize the chips (which the
> casino would still have to honor), and the
> technology does not have a successful track
> record in enough high-volume casinos to
> justify implementing it - much like the
> vaunted facial recognition processes tested
> for implementation in Homeland Security with
> test results so dismal that even the
> Homeland Security Department would not waste
> money to purchase them. Casinos do not
> usually execute wholesale purchases of
> leading-edge technology. They let other
> corporations serve as the alpha and beta
> test sites and the initial,
> full-implementation sites. After the
> products are proven and the price-points
> drop drastically, the casinos will make
> wholesale purchases for implementation. An
> example is the coinless slot machine
> process. Some casinos have implemented the
> systems on some or all of their machines,
> but one casino, in a deal with IGT, is
> making a massive purchase of new slot
> machines but funded the research and
> development of their own devices to be
> installed in the IGT machines, because they
> found no devices currently on the market
> meeting their performance standards,
> never-mind their cost standards.

[Greasy John]

I saw this technology pertaining to Foxwoods on the Travel Station, or was it ESPN... The program was one of those shows which highlights casinos and the program was quite clear on this information.

[j11]

I responded to Greasy John's statement that Foxwoods playing chips had imbedded micro-chips. His statement, as my response indicated, was wrong.

As for the MindPlay product, statements on their site indicate the casino must use the MindPlay tables (which include MindPlay's dealing shoe, discard tray, player's club card-scanner, and optical scanners at each betting spot. Foxwoods may have run and may still be running limited tests with the system, but the MindPlay tables are not in general use at Foxwoods.

Statements that the system was being tested or a future implementation was projected could have been accidentally/puposefully edited into the program so listeners would assume production implementation of the technology at Foxwoods had occurred (scare AP's away and promote MindPlay). However, MindPlay tables are not in general use at Foxwoods. I am sure the Mohegan Sun eagerly awaits such an move by Foxwoods, since the Sun's BJ business seems to be trailing Foxwoods BJ business.

[ShoelessD]

I can confirm that Foxwoods has no such chips or tables in general use. Since Foxwoods opened, they have changed their chips once, about 6 years ago......before this technology was available.

[SOTSOG]

> I saw this technology pertaining to Foxwoods
> on the Travel Station, or was it ESPN ...

False, misleading, inaccurate information on a casino gambling entertainment-infomercial type program?

How could something like that ever happen?

[Night Patrol]

You are correct. I've played played shoes for well over an hour many times, before making a significant bet. I cant imagine a sweaty casino stalking a ploppy(or counter) for hours untill they finally raise a bet,what a waste of time and energy.

Nevertheless you'll hear imposters,casino trolls,wannabe card counters,surveilliance(DV Cellini)and others claim if you are a pro counter you'll be made out in 10 minutes if the pit and crew are experienced,what a JOKE.