DUCKY: Double Exposre vs Casino War

[DUCKY]

I have a question for the board. A friend of mine swears by double exposure blackjack. The game he is playing Blackjack pays even money. Dealer takes all ties. Hits on soft 17. Player can double on any 2 cards. No surrender. I told him he is nuts that he would have a better chance playing CASINO WAR. If someone would please run the numbers by me so I can explain it to him. Or am I wrong? Thanks in advance.

[Parker]

> I have a question for the board. A friend of
> mine swears by double exposure blackjack.
> The game he is playing Blackjack pays even
> money. Dealer takes all ties. Hits on soft
> 17. Player can double on any 2 cards. No
> surrender. I told him he is nuts that he
> would have a better chance playing CASINO
> WAR. If someone would please run the numbers
> by me so I can explain it to him. Or am I
> wrong? Thanks in advance.

Well, actually you're wrong. Sorry.

Being able to double any two cards makes the DE game a fairly decent game, with a house edge of only around .35% or so, depending on the other rules - comparable to a normal double deck game. This assumes proper DE strategy.

OTOH, a six deck Casino War game with no special bonuses has a whopping 2.88% house edge.

Furthermore, Casino War is a much faster game than blackack, so the hourly expectation numbers are even worse.

[DUCKY]

> Well, actually you're wrong. Sorry.

> Being able to double any two cards makes the
> DE game a fairly decent game, with a house
> edge of only around .35% or so, depending on
> the other rules - comparable to a normal
> double deck game. This assumes proper DE
> strategy.

> OTOH, a six deck Casino War game with no
> special bonuses has a whopping 2.88% house
> edge.

> Furthermore, Casino War is a much faster
> game than blackack, so the hourly
> expectation numbers are even worse.

Even with the dealer winning on all ties? How do you over come this? Average 100 hands their are about 8 ties. Plus even money on BJ.

[Parker]

> Even with the dealer winning on all ties?
> How do you over come this? Average 100 hands
> their are about 8 ties. Plus even money on
> BJ.

Yes, but always knowing the dealer's "hole card" is a huge advantage for the player.

I simply plugged the rules into Stanford Wong's BJ Edge calculator software (which has a provision for double exposure BJ), which indicated a house advantage ranging from .31% if a tied blackjack pays even money to .79% if a tied blackjack loses. This is assuming a six deck shoe, H17, DA2, and no DAS.

There is a chapter on Double Exposure Blackjack in Wong's Professional Blackjack, a book that I highly recommend. (Both the book and the software may be purchased from our online catalog.)

I got the Casino War numbers from The Wizard of Odds website, which also has a page on Double Exposure BJ. Link below

The Wizard of Odds

[DUCKY]

> Yes, but always knowing the dealer's
> "hole card" is a huge advantage
> for the player.

> I simply plugged the rules into Stanford
> Wong's BJ Edge calculator software (which
> has a provision for double exposure BJ),
> which indicated a house advantage ranging
> from .31% if a tied blackjack pays even
> money to .79% if a tied blackjack loses.
> This is assuming a six deck shoe, H17, DA2,
> and no DAS.

> There is a chapter on Double Exposure
> Blackjack in Wong's Professional Blackjack,
> a book that I highly recommend. (Both the
> book and the software may be purchased from
> our online catalog.)

> I got the Casino War numbers from The Wizard
> of Odds website, which also has a page on
> Double Exposure BJ. Link below

Thanks for the info. It is my fault that I did not tell you it is a CSM machine,not a 6 deck shoe.

[Parker]

> Thanks for the info. It is my fault that I
> did not tell you it is a CSM machine,not a 6
> deck shoe.

For a basic strategy player that would actually decrease the house advantage slightly, since CSM's are normally loaded with 4 or 5 decks, rather than 6.

Of course, it is impossible to count cards with the CSM. In a shoe version, it is possible to obtain an edge at Double Exposure blackjack by counting cards.

[Don Schlesinger]

> For a basic strategy player that would
> actually decrease the house advantage
> slightly, since CSM's are normally loaded
> with 4 or 5 decks, rather than 6.

And, they don't have a cut-card effect.

Don

[RP]

But, there are more hands per hour with CSM's (20%, I believe), so a BS player (who is playing with negative EV) will lose just as much or more (or lose a specified stake just as fast or faster) with the CSM as with a shoe with the same rules, correct?

> And, they don't have a cut-card effect.

> Don

[Don Schlesinger]

> But, there are more hands per hour with
> CSM's (20%, I believe), so a BS player (who
> is playing with negative EV) will lose just
> as much or more (or lose a specified stake
> just as fast or faster) with the CSM as with
> a shoe with the same rules, correct?

Correct. So, if I were such a player, I'd quit at a quarter to the hour, and take a walk, instead of playing. :-)

Don

[Ed Tice]

Sometimes they do have a cut-card effect! Lets not forget that the casinos are "infinitely greedy". I have seen *many* casinos in Europe that deal out the equivalent of one deck of cards and then reinsert them into the machine... unless of course all small cards come out, then they stick them right back in preferntially. And you have no way to know this unless you are counting the cards!

Since a non-counter could never spot such subtle changes that completely tilt the odds in the other direction.

I would say that the CSM in use does matter and that choosing between casino war and blackjack against a CSM is like choosing between death by hanging or firing squad.

Although one *good* thing abou the CSM is that you dont need to give any tips. Slot players dont have to tip the dealer and since a CSM is just a slot machine on the table, there is no need to tip. So if you normally are a big tipper perhaps the CSM game is better.

Ed

> And, they don't have a cut-card effect.

> Don

[John Wesley Powell]

> But, there are more hands per hour with
> CSM's (20%, I believe), so a BS player (who
> is playing with negative EV) will lose just
> as much or more (or lose a specified stake
> just as fast or faster) with the CSM as with
> a shoe with the same rules, correct?
Hands per hour difference between a CSM and hand shuffled game are not 20%. Depending on who the dealer is, hand shuffled and CSM's get out the same number of hph. CSM's were put in for basically two reasons; a) they thought they could get more hph's [they don't] and make more money [they don't], b) they were (are) scared that a bunch of smartass kids from some ivy league school will clean their racks [they still do].