If surrender against an ace was allowed; what type of hand would you do it at
Am i wrong in thinking, all hard totals between 12 and 16 or starting at 13; any ideas?
If surrender against an ace was allowed; what type of hand would you do it at
Am i wrong in thinking, all hard totals between 12 and 16 or starting at 13; any ideas?
> If surrender against an ace was allowed;
> what type of hand would you do it at
> Am i wrong in thinking, all hard totals
> between 12 and 16 or starting at 13; any
> ideas?
There are two forms of surrender against an ace (or ten). Early surrender (ES - now extremely rare) means being given the option to surrender before the dealer checks for blackjack. Late surrender (LS - the more common form) means being given the option only after the dealer checks for blackjack.
In games where the dealer stands on all 17s, basic strategy against an ace is to late surrender 16 (except 8-8). In games where the dealer hits soft 17s, basic strategy against the ace is to late surrender 15, 16 (including 8-8) and 17. With early surrender you would surrender against an ace far more often, but I don't have the strategy handy.
If you count cards there are also times when it's appropriate to deviate from the above basic strategy. In particular Don's Fab 4 surrender indices will get you most of the gain available from the late surrender rule.
> In games where
> the dealer hits soft 17s, basic strategy
> against the ace is to late surrender 15, 16
> (including 8-8) and 17.
8,8 vs A
1D H17 DOA DAS LS
SPL1 -0.470321
SPL2 -0.464537
SPL3 -0.464135
1D H17 Double 10,11 NDAS LS
SPL1 -0.482754
SPL2 -0.478089
SPL3 -0.477752
2D H17 DOA DAS LS
SPL1 -0.499517
SPL2 -0.494647
SPL3 -0.493906
2D H17 Double 10,11 NDAS LS
SPL1 -0.505294
SPL2 -0.501152
SPL3 -0.500507
4D H17 DOA DAS LS
SPL1 -0.513401
SPL2 -0.509655
SPL3 -0.508981
So the switch to surrender happens at 4D with good rules, with 1 deck you should still split, and for 2 deck games the rules will determine whether or not to split.
Sincerely,
MGP
> There are two forms of surrender against an
> ace (or ten). Early surrender (ES - now
> extremely rare) means being given the option
> to surrender before the dealer checks for
> blackjack. Late surrender (LS - the more
> common form) means being given the option
> only after the dealer checks for blackjack.
> In games where the dealer stands on all 17s,
> basic strategy against an ace is to late
> surrender 16 (except 8-8). In games where
> the dealer hits soft 17s, basic strategy
> against the ace is to late surrender 15, 16
> (including 8-8) and 17. With early surrender
> you would surrender against an ace far more
> often, but I don't have the strategy handy.
> If you count cards there are also times when
> it's appropriate to deviate from the above
> basic strategy. In particular Don's Fab 4
> surrender indices will get you most of the
> gain available from the late surrender rule.
With LS,H17 should you still surrender 15,16,17,vs A if the dealer still takes your total bet if he/she gets a blackjack? eg. the surrender doesnt count if the dealer gets a blackjack, and you lose your total bet not half.
With early surrender you would surrender against an ace far more often, but I don't have the strategy handy.
Magician and Harry:
According to Bryce Carlson's Blackjack for Blood, Table 4.6 (pg. 43), when Early Surrender is offered, Basic Strategy says to surrender hard totals of 5-7 and 13-17 vs. an A, and 14-16 vs. a 10 (soft totals should NOT be surrendered). Although Carlson was referring specifically to the 1-deck game, other authors give very similar recommendations. For example, page 147 of Knock-Out Blackjack, by Vancura and Fuchs, gives the same values as above, with the additional recommendation to surrender hard 16 (but NOT 8-8) vs. 9. Furthermore, Vancura and Fuchs claim that early surrender is worth 0.63% to the BS player.
Hope this answers your question!
Dog Hand
> With LS,H17 should you still surrender
> 15,16,17,vs A if the dealer still takes your
> total bet if he/she gets a blackjack? eg.
> the surrender doesnt count if the dealer
> gets a blackjack, and you lose your total
> bet not half.
That is what the "late" in LS means. If surrendering would save you from a dealer blackjack it's called "early" surrender and you should surrender even more hands (see Dog Hand's response).
> 8,8 vs A
> So the switch to surrender happens at 4D
> with good rules, with 1 deck you should
> still split, and for 2 deck games the rules
> will determine whether or not to split.
Thanks MGP. I envy anybody who plays a single or double deck game with surrender. Is this the only basic strategy surrender decision that depends upon the number of decks? What happens with 2D H17 DOA NDAS LS?
> Thanks MGP.
Anytime
> I envy anybody who plays a
> single or double deck game with surrender.
> Is this the only basic strategy surrender
> decision that depends upon the number of
> decks? What happens with 2D H17 DOA NDAS LS?
8,8 vs A
2D H17 DOA NDAS LS
SPL1 -0.505294
SPL2 -0.501152
SPL3 -0.500507
This is interesting since the trend suggests that if you are allowed to split 4 times it may change the strategy, unfortunately I don't have that programmed in yet - Cacarulo might, I can't remember if he does or not...
By the way, the BJMath page in the the table of contents has a link to Cacarulo's strategy tables which cover several deck/rules sets (http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/basic/basic.htm).
It's not the only deck dependent strategy change for surrender - the rest can be found in those tables. If there's something specific you're interested in I'd be happy to run it if my program supports the rules.
Sincerely,
MGP
> It's not the only deck dependent strategy
> change for surrender - the rest can be found
> in those tables. If there's something
> specific you're interested in I'd be happy
> to run it if my program supports the rules.
See, also, Griffin, p. 178.
Don
> Anytime
> 8,8 vs A
> 2D H17 DOA NDAS LS
> SPL1 -0.505294
> SPL2 -0.501152
> SPL3 -0.500507
> This is interesting since the trend suggests
> that if you are allowed to split 4 times it
> may change the strategy, unfortunately I
> don't have that programmed in yet - Cacarulo
> might, I can't remember if he does or not...
No, it does not change. Even if you were allowed to split 7 times!. The EV is around -0.5004 so surrender is still the best choice.
Sincerely,
Cacarulo
> No, it does not change. Even if you were
> allowed to split 7 times!. The EV is around
> -0.5004 so surrender is still the best
> choice.
In general, it's safe to assume that for splits beyond three, we hardly see a change for any play, because the probability of splitting to, say, 5 or 6 hands is so remote as to not be worth discussing.
Don
> In general, it's safe to assume that for
> splits beyond three, we hardly see a change
> for any play, because the probability of
> splitting to, say, 5 or 6 hands is so remote
> as to not be worth discussing.
Right, but this play was so close that it got me curious
Sincerely,
Cacarulo
> See, also, Griffin, p. 178.
This is almost exactly what I was after. I've often referred to the BS outline on the previous two pages but I never noticed that the surrender info was on the next page. Thanks Don.
One thing though - I need a total-dependent strategy. I'm guessing it will be the same as the (T,5), (T,6) and (T,7) strategy. Is this correct?
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