Masquerace: "obvious" drawing rules?

[Masquerace]

another begginer doubt-curiosity nagging me.

As I might be visiting Venice in 2 weeks time, I checked the city Casino site (www.casinovenezia.it) and for the first time to my knowledge I saw *explicitly* stated these 2 BJ rules:

- the player MUST draw with totals below 11
- the player MUST stand with total = 21

Now, the 2nd could be truly obvious, unless you bet on multiple boxes, you're last before a dealer's Ace (NoHoleCard game) and you KNEW (???) that next card is a 10:
you might scale down your BJ to a 21 hoping to avoid dealer's BJ and save your other hands... (I know, this sounds crazy, even more if you have a multicard hard 21...).

Yet I thought that the players were FREE, if they wanted (following a "hunch" maybe...?), to stand with any total.
Indeed in the 3 places I visited the dealers DO ask you even when you have a 5 or an 8.
Strangely enough, they ask you if you wanna hit the 1st card with a low total, BUT if you are still below 12 even with 3 or 4 cards (it happens), they keep drawing without further asking till you reach or pass 12...

Anyway, how's the habit in the states and around the world???
CAN you stand below 11-12 or hit a (soft) 21 IF you want, despite the craziness of it???

[Don Schlesinger]

> - the player MUST draw with totals below 11
> - the player MUST stand with total = 21

First of all, I would seriously doubt that these are the actual rules of the casino. The Web site is simply wrong, in my view.

Second, why wouldn't the first rule say "with totals 11 or below"? Why would you be permitted to stand on 11? How is it different from 10 or below?

Finally, to my knowledge, the above rules do not exist in any casino that I know of and are certainly NOT what we have in the U.S.

Don

[Coug Fan]

There are very few reasons why a casino would want to specify these rules. End play comes to mind, but that is very rare since it requires extreme penetration.

We do not have these rules in the US. The rules would be unenforceable in a face down game, and I have personally seen the first rule violated on numerous occasions in a face up game (player stood with a total of 8 or less).

In a face down game, it is generally frowned upon to keep hitting after your total is 22 or more, but I don't know that this is specifically against the rules. However, it may get you noticed as a card counter if you make a habit of doing this only in negative counts. I have seen people pull this off along with a good drunk act.

[Magician]

> - the player MUST draw with totals below 11
> - the player MUST stand with total = 21

Although this seems to be unheard of in the US, I know of at least one non-US casino where this is the rule (the player may not stand on 11 either).

The first rule is actually more "obvious" than the second. Without special knowledge it is never correct to stand on 11 or less. On the other hand, at extremely high counts it can be correct to double soft 21 (after splitting tens), and at even higher counts to double a natural.

> Indeed in the 3 places I visited the dealers
> DO ask you even when you have a 5 or an 8.
> Strangely enough, they ask you if you wanna
> hit the 1st card with a low total, BUT if
> you are still below 12 even with 3 or 4
> cards (it happens), they keep drawing
> without further asking till you reach or
> pass 12...

You generally have the option of doubling and/or surrendering on your first two cards, so the dealer must wait for your decision. After that, you don't have a choice until you reach a total of 12 or more. If there are doubling restrictions and no surrender, it's possible to have your hand played entirely for you under these rules (e.g. you are dealt 5-3, then automatically hit with a 3 then a 10.)

Ploppies benefit from this rule because they are prevented from making stupid decisions. The house benefits because a faster game more than makes up for the extra profit from those stupid decisions. APs should also benefit from a faster game, and this should easily make up for the inability to double those naturals and soft 21s (if you even bothered to learn the indices).

[Coug Fan]

> Ploppies benefit from this rule because they
> are prevented from making stupid decisions.
> The house benefits because a faster game
> more than makes up for the extra profit from
> those stupid decisions. APs should also
> benefit from a faster game, and this should
> easily make up for the inability to double
> those naturals and soft 21s (if you even
> bothered to learn the indices).

On two separate occasions, I have waved off a card when I had a hard 8 vs dealer 4-6 in a face up game. I am so focused on doing a quick update to the TC conversion (since I am real close to the index), and am thinking "no double" when I do the hand wave. Fortunately, on both occasions, the dealer asked again whether I was sure.

[Masquerace]

> First of all, I would seriously doubt that
> these are the actual rules of the casino.
> The Web site is simply wrong, in my view.

Strange, but true.
Was there. Inquired a dealer. She confirmed.

> Second, why wouldn't the first rule say
> "with totals 11 or below"? Why
> would you be permitted to stand on 11? How
> is it different from 10 or below?

That was the only error in the site.
You also MUST draw with a total of 11.

> Finally, to my knowledge, the above rules do
> not exist in any casino that I know of and
> are certainly NOT what we have in the U.S.

> Don

That's also the only 1 of the 4 I now have visited in Northern Italy area.

When I aksed whether it was true what I read on their site, she answered
"yes, we used to have no rules on drawin/standing the initial hand. I remember some players standing with 8.
But recently the house decided to introduce them to avoid....."
...she gets distracted, and drops the conversation. Then, few seconds later, vaguely mumbles: "....complications...."

This is puzzling, considering that they have CSM anyway!

Anyway, couple of hands later, I had a 9 against a face.
She waited for my answer. I gave her a startled look, and she clarified "on 9-10-11 you can't stand indeed, but I have to wait in case you'd like to double".
Few hands later I had a hard a 5-3 tho, and she waited for my call again!
___

At the main site (beautiful classical palace on the Grand Canal. They recently opened a subsidiary albeit more crowded new site near the airport which I didn't visit) they have 2 tables min. 10? (but you can increase by 5), max~200?(?).
Usual rules I stated in other posts, except RS4 (resplit up to 4 hands).

Interesting, they have a numbers panel, like those behind roulette tables, showing the dealer's last 8-10 results (entered with a kbd after every hand). First time I see it for BJ.

In two mid-week evenings (9pm-2am) they were never full.
Players came from everywhere, which is not surprising considering the world tourist beacon nature of Venice.
Level of players is really low.
There was a couple of young americans, for instance, who always spilt 10s (against any), and stood with 12 against high, hitting it against 4-5-6....
But they were not the only ones at all

[Magician]

> Interesting, they have a numbers panel, like
> those behind roulette tables, showing the
> dealer's last 8-10 results (entered with a
> kbd after every hand). First time I see it
> for BJ.

Ah, this is another case when the usual procedure can change. If all players bust or get naturals the dealer doesn't usually complete her hand. When one of these displays is used, the dealer usually completes her hand regardless. This has the effect of reducing penetration, especially when you play heads-up.