I learned recently that it is illegal for casinos to kick you out (at least here in Montreal), even if they're 100% sure that you're a skilled card counter. If this is truly the case, then what can they do to prevent you from playing? Everyone seems so paranoid to be identified as a card counter, there must be some serious consequences to getting caught, no???
Thank you
> I learned recently that it is illegal for
> casinos to kick you out (at least here in
> Montreal), even if they're 100% sure that
> you're a skilled card counter. If this is
> truly the case, then what can they do to
> prevent you from playing? Everyone seems so
> paranoid to be identified as a card counter,
> there must be some serious consequences to
> getting caught, no???
They can half-shoe you - that is, instruct the dealer to place the cut card right in the middle of the six deck shoe, instead of cutting off the customary 1 to 2 decks. This makes counting cards almost impossible - you will rarely see high counts.
They can lower the table limits, making it impossible to use an effective bet spread.
There are other measures that they can take, but I am not familiar with Canadian gambling laws. Perhaps some of our Canadian readers would care to comment. Moose?
Bottom line: If they want to make the game unplayable for you, they will find a way to do it. Furthermore, in areas where counters cannot be barred, the overall quality of the games invariably suffers. (See Atlantic City.) This is why most counters are against such legislation in Nevada, even in the unlikely event that the state legislature (which is dominated by casino interests) might actually consider it.
> They can half-shoe you - that is, instruct
> the dealer to place the cut card right in
> the middle of the six deck shoe, instead of
> cutting off the customary 1 to 2 decks. This
> makes counting cards almost impossible - you
> will rarely see high counts.
> They can lower the table limits, making it
> impossible to use an effective bet spread.
> There are other measures that they can take,
> but I am not familiar with Canadian gambling
> laws. Perhaps some of our Canadian readers
> would care to comment. Moose?
> Bottom line: If they want to make the game
> unplayable for you, they will find a way to
> do it. Furthermore, in areas where counters
> cannot be barred, the overall quality of the
> games invariably suffers. (See Atlantic
> City.) This is why most counters are against
> such legislation in Nevada, even in the
> unlikely event that the state legislature
> (which is dominated by casino interests)
> might actually consider it.
Ok...I see it's not easy to be a card counter. It's very likely that they'll find out about your skills and simply make it virtually impossible to play. If I don't want to bother hidding my skills, maybe I should simply forget about it, no?
> Ok...I see it's not easy to be a card
> counter. It's very likely that they'll find
> out about your skills and simply make it
> virtually impossible to play. If I don't
> want to bother hidding my skills, maybe I
> should simply forget about it, no?
Quite possibly. You see, actually learning how to count cards is the easy part. Anyone with average intelligence can learn how to use a counting system to determine when to increase ones bet when one has the advantage.
However, knowing the most sophisticated counting system in the world will not do you any good if they will not let you play. This is where it gets tricky. You must be able to use your counting system while at the same time putting on a convincing "act" for the pit and surveillance to convince them than you are not a card counter.
Techniques for doing this are referred to as "cover" and "camoflage," and you will find much discussion of them on websites such as this one. Entire books, such as Ian Andersen's Burning the Tables in Las Vegas, (highly recommended, BTW) have been written on the subject.
> Quite possibly. You see, actually learning
> how to count cards is the easy part. Anyone
> with average intelligence can learn how to
> use a counting system to determine when to
> increase ones bet when one has the
> advantage.
> However, knowing the most sophisticated
> counting system in the world will not do you
> any good if they will not let you play. This
> is where it gets tricky. You must be able to
> use your counting system while at the same
> time putting on a convincing "act"
> for the pit and surveillance to convince
> them than you are not a card counter.
> Techniques for doing this are referred to as
> "cover" and "camoflage,"
> and you will find much discussion of them on
> websites such as this one. Entire books,
> such as Ian Andersen's Burning the Tables
> in Las Vegas, (highly recommended, BTW)
> have been written on the subject.
Ok thank you for your once again precious advise. It must be kindda hard to fool casinos..Better be a good actor. Since they certainly know every possible camouflage technique, it might get virtually impossible to always play at the same casino (we only have one here in Montreal), without them noticing that you're a card counter. Thank you again.
Even back when it was illegal to bar people for winning here in Alberta, they would simply wait for you to do something trivial and bar you for that.
One of the most celebrated counters in these parts used to play at a high stakes table, back when this casino had a beatable high stakes game. People would rarely play at the table, but on those odd times when someone joined, the counter would immediately take a marker (sometimes a dinner marker), have a bite, and wait for the guy to leave the casino, and go back and play.
So, they barred him for - get this - "abusing marker privileges".
You get the idea.
Now that alcohol is legal in Canadian casinos, they specifically have legislation to eject you from the premises without giving you a reason. So, while it may be illegal to bar you for being a counter, it's perfectly legal to bar you "just because".
However, as Parker pointed out, about the worst they usually do is lessen the penetration on you. Just about every high stakes game left up here, if it doesn't have a CSM on it, is either already 50% pen or they will go to 50% at the first sign of danger.
The key is to be cordial and don't spread so viciously that you will be perceived as a threat. Just about all of our images of card counters up here are "one at the minimum to many at the table max", so a counter spreading 1-2x8 might not even register at any but the sweatiest joints.
M.
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