RayMetz100: killing time with craps

[RayMetz100]

I'm a new BJ player, and so far I've played 2100 hands of $3, 6D, H17, DA2, DAS games in Everett, WA.

I woke up way down south of Seattle yesterday morning and had about 2 hours to kill, so I decided to go check out the Muckleshoot casino. It's supposed to be the biggest casino in Washington State or something.

To my dismay, the cheapest BJ tables were all $5, and their rules were all 8D, H17, DA2, no double after split. I only have a $150 bank, so the $5 tables alone were enough to scare me off, plus the fact that I don't know the BS for a NDAS game.

I decided to check out the craps pit, because the baccarat tables were all $25 min. I just placed $5 on the pass line for the come out roll and watched them throw dice till they made it or crapped out. It seemed like a nice slow way to lose money. One of the dealers showed me how to place another $5 just off of my pass line bet, and he said it paid 6-1 (the point was a 6).

Is this the slowest way to lose money playing craps, or is there another bet that would have been better? What are the true odds bets and should I have been playing those too? I asked the dealer what the odds bets were and he said that all bets were odds bets.

I missed a come out roll for a round and he recommended that I put $5 on the line by the pass. He said that paid 7-1(point was 6 or 8 still). I declined.

I lucked out and ended up winning $17 in the 30 minutes before I had to leave.

There is another Indian casino, Tulalup, closer to my house with lousy $5, 6D, H17, NDAS games. But they also have $5 craps I think. I'd like to learn a little more about craps in case I end up getting stuck there with friends or have extra time to kill there.

When my bank gets around $300-$500, I probably won't be so scared of the $5 tables, and then I won't need another game. Learning the BS for NDAS will also help.

Ray

[mraudio20]

> I'm a new BJ player, and so far I've played
> 2100 hands of $3, 6D, H17, DA2, DAS games in
> Everett, WA.

> I woke up way down south of Seattle
> yesterday morning and had about 2 hours to
> kill, so I decided to go check out the
> Muckleshoot casino. It's supposed to be the
> biggest casino in Washington State or
> something.

> To my dismay, the cheapest BJ tables were
> all $5, and their rules were all 8D, H17,
> DA2, no double after split. I only have a
> $150 bank, so the $5 tables alone were
> enough to scare me off, plus the fact that I
> don't know the BS for a NDAS game.

8D,H17,DA2,NDAS is pardon my language, shitty rules! You are playing at a -.77 disadvantage, compared to -.6 with 6D,H17,DA2,DAS with BS. There are better games in Washington than 6D,H17,DA2,DAS. Some have LSR or RSA. So shop around and don't waste your time playing with poor rules. You'll be glad you did.

[Eindecker]

A free odds bet can be made in addition to a pass line bet, or don't pass bet. The odds portion of the bet is paid in true and correct odds, with no house or player advantage. For example, the true odds of a 6 or 8 rolling before a 7 is 5:6, so the odds bet payoff is $6 for a $5 odds bet.

When you lay odds with a don't come bet, the odds are reversed. For example if you have a $5 don't pass bet, and back it up with $6 in odds, when the 7 rolls before the 6 you win $5 for your $6 bet.

The odds payoffs are:
6/8: 6:5
5/9: 3:2
4/10: 2:1

The slowest way to lose money would probably be laying 2x odds (twice your flat bet) on a don't come bet. This reduces the house advantage to about the same as playing perfect BS at a good BJ game.

Increasing the odds amount will increase the variance in win and loss rates, so it's not a bad idea to keep the odds bets at 2x or 3x if you've got a somewhat limited bankroll.

Craps can actually be a positive EV game if you include match coupons, or calculate comps into the equation in a casino with a favorable comp system.

Be very careful of the group of clones pitching dice control as a method of making craps a positive expectation game. It's proven impossible.

Cheers,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> I'm a new BJ player, and so far I've played
> 2100 hands of $3, 6D, H17, DA2, DAS games in
> Everett, WA.

> I woke up way down south of Seattle
> yesterday morning and had about 2 hours to
> kill, so I decided to go check out the
> Muckleshoot casino. It's supposed to be the
> biggest casino in Washington State or
> something.

> To my dismay, the cheapest BJ tables were
> all $5, and their rules were all 8D, H17,
> DA2, no double after split. I only have a
> $150 bank, so the $5 tables alone were
> enough to scare me off, plus the fact that I
> don't know the BS for a NDAS game.

> I decided to check out the craps pit,
> because the baccarat tables were all $25
> min. I just placed $5 on the pass line for
> the come out roll and watched them throw
> dice till they made it or crapped out. It
> seemed like a nice slow way to lose money.
> One of the dealers showed me how to place
> another $5 just off of my pass line bet, and
> he said it paid 6-1 (the point was a 6).

> Is this the slowest way to lose money
> playing craps, or is there another bet that
> would have been better? What are the true
> odds bets and should I have been playing
> those too? I asked the dealer what the odds
> bets were and he said that all bets were
> odds bets.

> I missed a come out roll for a round and he
> recommended that I put $5 on the line by the
> pass. He said that paid 7-1(point was 6 or 8
> still). I declined.

> I lucked out and ended up winning $17 in the
> 30 minutes before I had to leave.

> There is another Indian casino, Tulalup,
> closer to my house with lousy $5, 6D, H17,
> NDAS games. But they also have $5 craps I
> think. I'd like to learn a little more about
> craps in case I end up getting stuck there
> with friends or have extra time to kill
> there.

> When my bank gets around $300-$500, I
> probably won't be so scared of the $5
> tables, and then I won't need another game.
> Learning the BS for NDAS will also help.

> Ray

[crazy crapper]

Can you tell me where I can find such information? If it's been proven impossible I'm sure it's in print somewhere.

> Be very careful of the group of clones
> pitching dice control as a method of making
> craps a positive expectation game. It's
> proven impossible.

> Cheers,
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Eindecker]

> Can you tell me where I can find such
> information? If it's been proven impossible
> I'm sure it's in print somewhere.
-----------------

Yes, see a series of posts on the subject at www.starchip.com/crapspit.htm. The same information was posted at BJ21.com, but the thread is not on the current listing.

The idea of dice control is easily falsified using first-year college physics to calculate the force of the dice throw compared to the force required to move a die off-axis.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Don Schlesinger]

> The idea of dice control is easily falsified
> using first-year college physics to
> calculate the force of the dice throw
> compared to the force required to move a die
> off-axis.

Shhhh. Don't tell Frank Scoblete; he'll be very upset. And, so will his army of "rhythmic roller" followers. :-)

Don