Ouchez: What do you players think about

[Ouchez]

hand shuffle,(not trackable), versus auto shufflers?

I have my thoughts, I would like to hear yours.

Ouchez.

[ET Fan]

Stay away from them! Nobody has proven to my satisfaction they don't increase the house edge. Millions of dollars of R&D went into those machines. When they sell them, they tell the casinos they will increase their edge.

ETF

> hand shuffle,(not trackable), versus auto
> shufflers?

> I have my thoughts, I would like to hear
> yours.

> Ouchez.

[Ouchez]

> Stay away from them! Nobody has proven to my
> satisfaction they don't increase the house
> edge. Millions of dollars of R&D went into
> those machines. When they sell them, they
> tell the casinos they will increase their
> edge.

> ETF

the nod? I thought the hot sell was that you get more hands per hour and less chance of a dealer cheating and putting an end to any chance of shuffle tracking. Do you really believe they give the house a higher math edge??

Nice to see you posting big guy!

Ouchez.

[ET Fan]

... the Ladies of the Vineyard Golf Club have to do with it?

> Do you really
> believe they give the house a higher math
> edge??

I'd be surprised if they didn't.

ETF

[Ouchez]

[Jack Fate]

.vs. machine shouldn't matter unless you can track[which I can't].

[Parker]

I'm not a tracker, so I like the machine shufflers for the same reason that the casinos like them: more hands per hour.

[MrPill]

> I'm not a tracker, so I like the machine
> shufflers for the same reason that the
> casinos like them: more hands per hour.

I agree with Parker, more hands per hour!

I also do not believe there is anyway that they could alter the cards to enhance the house edge.

Pill

[KidDangerous]

ill be the extremeist and pose the following "what if"? also i want to say ahead of time, noone have a heart attack over this... im just saying what if...for S&G's......
we already know the casino marks their cards...
hence the card reader on the table....
and we have all seen a machine count thousands of dollars at the speed of light.... so what if while shuffling.... the marked cards are culled and redistributed to the casino's liking?
considering gaming licenses and all im pretty sure this isnt happening... but is there an automatic shuffler sitting on a shelf somewhere..
that is the pride and joy of the makers.... that does this?
in the casino..probably not...sitting on a shelf..
i wouldnt be the least bit surprised.....
oh....and i have hoffa's brief case ...
(humor,joke,not serious,dont even know the color of it)

> hand shuffle,(not trackable), versus auto
> shufflers?

> I have my thoughts, I would like to hear
> yours.

> Ouchez.

[Ouchez]

> ill be the extremeist and pose the following
> "what if"? also i want to say
> ahead of time, noone have a heart attack
> over this... im just saying what if...for
> S&G's......
> we already know the casino marks their
> cards...
> hence the card reader on the table....
> and we have all seen a machine count
> thousands of dollars at the speed of
> light.... so what if while shuffling.... the
> marked cards are culled and redistributed to
> the casino's liking?
> considering gaming licenses and all im
> pretty sure this isnt happening... but is
> there an automatic shuffler sitting on a
> shelf somewhere..
> that is the pride and joy of the makers....
> that does this?
> in the casino..probably not...sitting on a
> shelf..
> i wouldnt be the least bit surprised.....
> oh....and i have hoffa's brief case ...
> (humor,joke,not serious,dont even know the
> color of it)

on this principle, but in an "after the fact" mode.

Sorta like preferential shuffling.

Regards,
Ouchez.

[ET Fan]

> so what if while shuffling.... the
> marked cards are culled and redistributed to
> the casino's liking?

You don't need a card reader in the machine to get a bias. The order of the discards is not random. All you need is software in the machine that transforms the biases in the discards into biases that favor the house. And the machines have 100% control of the interlacing. Ie. 100% control of where every card will land in relation to its original position. With millions in R&D, it could be a bias that couldn't possibly be exploited by the other side.

> considering gaming licenses and all im
> pretty sure this isnt happening...

I don't know what you mean by that. I don't think the question is even addressed in any statute or gaming reg. All they have to do is keep it out of the manuals and promotions, to avoid a public relations scandal that might lead to new regulations. Just tell the salemen to keep it word of mouth.

I don't have proof that they are doing this, but I think the proof should be on the other side.

ETF

[KidDangerous]

> I don't know what you mean by that. I don't
> think the question is even addressed in any
> statute or gaming reg. All they have to do
> is keep it out of the manuals and
> promotions, to avoid a public relations
> scandal that might lead to new regulations.
> Just tell the salemen to keep it word of
> mouth.

i just meant i dont think they would risk losing
a gaming license over "card stacking", if you will. but i dunno, like you lay it out maybe
they have found a loop hole they use, that convinces
themselves its justified and legal.
as far as im concerned any game that isnt hand shuffled and dealt thru in the traditional way
isnt blackjack anymore. blackjack is a game
that is dealt from a set number of cards and your
wins or losses are dictated by the memory of the cards or cards remaining. however one chooses to look at it. so i dont even think they should be able to call a game,that has continous shuffling,
blackjack. it should be called constant jack,blackdoom , or getjacked. something, anything. just not blackjack. that would be like taking a chess game and saying "every three moves your pieces have to return to your side of the board" and still calling the game chess. it's not. and someone is thinking "well you must not consider a "shoe" game blackjack because, originally it was one deck dealt all the way thru to the end. no. thats being extreme. there is some middleground here. all that being said. i see the advantage of more hands per hour.but. i stay away from them as much as i can. only playing them if it is an absolute must.

good day to all!!

[Dog Hand]

You don't need a card reader in the machine to get a bias. The order of the discards is not random . All you need is software in the machine that transforms the biases in the discards into biases that favor the house.
(snip)

ETF,

To gain such an advantage, wouldn't the house need to know exactly how many hands will be played on each round for the upcoming shoe? For example, if the house knew that only one box would be played, then I understand how the cards could be stacked: the player gets 19, the house 20, etc. But what happens if the player adds another box, or another player joins the table, or a player sits out? How can the house know in advance how to order the cards?

Dog Hand