Disturbing video

[Aslan]

Very difficult questions as the U.S. alone has 52 sets of laws (not counting tribal areas and territories). And, cops don’t have law degrees anyhow. It also depends on your purpose. If your purpose is to create the conditions for a suit, I have no interest. Funny thing, another site posted today that I am litigious. As I have said before, I have never sued anyone in my life and hope to be able to say that on my deathbed. My point in any negative situation is always to extract myself reasonably quickly with the best possible result.

Toward that end, I am always respectful in voice and action, if not in spirit. The good news is that these days you will probably be recorded. So, this is your chance to play to the tape, if that later matters. IMHO, suppress the “I have my rights” testosterone crap. Security guards don’t give a shit. Let them understand that you understand they’re just doing their jobs. Chat with them about the casino on the way to the backroom. If they remain aggressive, then insist on police presence. Then you will have a new pair of folks to chat with. Be careful of the word “constitution”. It may work in your favor if you have already established that you are cooperating and it is judiciously used. If they think you are not cooperating, the word will just piss them off more. Also, be slow to ask for a lawyer for the same reasons.

As for giving up your id, IANAL and certainly don’t know the laws in all jurisdictions. Personally, I would politely resist as long as possible. The words I have used in the past are: “You don’t need that”. This isn’t exactly an affront or refusal.

Attempt to negotiate or compromise your way out. Get what both parties want.

All of this is just the way I handle things. Sort of a Gandhi method. But then, it took Gandhi took three decades to win independence.

I definitely do not wish to be detained that long.

I think next time I will leave my ID in the car, since I do need it for driving.

"I don't seem to have it. I must have left it in my car."

Bu regardless, the police might escort me to my car, check my ID, and then return to the casino and tell them my name. I can do nothing to stop that, even if it is illegal. What can you do?

[21forme]

Bu regardless, the police might escort me to my car, check my ID, and then return to the casino and tell them my name. I can do nothing to stop that, even if it is illegal. What can you do?

Sue them

[Aslan]

Sue them

Sure. Legal expense, and what's the bottom line of a judgment against the police for telling the casino my name? Is it worth the hassle?

"We thought the casino had a right to know the plaintiff's ID for purposes of a No Trespass action. We made a mistake, your honor."
"And what kind of damages are you seeking, Plaintiff?"
"Duh! Defamation of character. Invasion of privacy."
"Well, I don't see how you have been defamed. The casino has the right to refuse service to anyone. However, your privacy was invaded. For that, you prevail. I award you the sum of $1.00 and I admonish the police to become familiar with the laws governing the rights of citizens to refuse the showing of an ID when they are not involved in a criminal case, or suspected of criminal activity. Case dismissed. See the bailiff for payment of fine and collection of award. Next case!"

Imaginary, I know. But that's a likely outcome.

The unlawful detention by casino is another matter. Maybe I am awarded $500 and instructed not to enter the premises again. Meanwhile, my name and picture is distributed coast to coast by a casino that does not like losing to an advantage cheat, I mean, player. But I really showed them not to mess with me!

Maybe I am just a pessimist, 21, but I've seen stuff go down like this all the time. No court is going to be sympathetic with the outing of an advantage player. "You know you're not welcome there, but you go there anyway. Yes, you were legally wronged, but the casino has a right to protect itself even from legal activities. They have a right to refuse service."

Give me a case with real defamation of character. That's different. You're not going to get a huge judgment for a casino trying to get your ID for purposes of a No Trespass against you.

[21forme]

what's the bottom line of a judgment against the police for telling the casino my name? Is it worth the hassle?

I know of more than one case that settled for mid 5 figures

[BOND]

I know of more than one case that settled for mid 5 figures

I personally know of 3 APs who each won a settlements for $40k in a case that involved illegal detainment in a tribal casino.

[Aslan]

I personally know of 3 APs who each won a settlements for $40k in a case that involved illegal detainment in a tribal casino.

I'm sure the devil's in the details. I doubt the case in Maryland will get more than cab fare home.

Anyway, the guy in Maryland now has his face plastered all over the gaming world. He did not go about it the right way IMO. What do you think he should have done?

He could have cooperated and dropped the matter. Maryland Live is privately owned and does not likely share such information with other casinos.

Or he could have resolutely refused to show his ID, letting the police carry out their threat of arresting him, fingerprinting him, detaining him, and revealing his identity to the casino. Then he might have a worthwhile case against both the casino and the police. Definitely, telling the police what the law is was not a good move on his part; better to be polite and quiet while at the same time refusing to show ID, if you want to go for the lawsuit.

Where am I going wrong?

[Norm]

Where am I going wrong?

You aren't, IMHO. One must pick one's battles. Take such events as learning experiences. Walk for a while in another's shoes.

[Exoter175]

You aren't, IMHO. One must pick one's battles. Take such events as learning experiences. Walk for a while in another's shoes.

When I walk in others' shoes, I like to take a pragmatic approach about things.

In this case, you have both the Police and the Casino personnel within the course of the video violating law. You know there's going to be video as every inch of that place is covered, and you know very well that the casino would have to give up the tapes in court, and if they were somehow of less quality they themselves would likely be found for tampering and altering them. You also have video of the bending of the man's arm, while causing no real reason to apply such pressure.

All this guy really had to do was keep quiet, calm, refuse to give anyone his identification or information, ask for a lawyer, for his chips to be cashed out on the spot at that location without argument or further delay, and let the police do their job at discerning the difference between the grey areas of law and casino law, and let them go forward. Should they themselves detain him, he's got a huge lawsuit. Should the casino force his hand, they step further into a grey area as far as legality is concerned with the pressure to his situation. Backrooming without just cause is allowable, should there be "found" cause from the suspicion, but if he'd have participated, quietly, calmly, made no real arguments aside from his refusal to provide his identification, he'd have been fine, placed his situation into the hands of others, acknowledged and accepted nothing in terms of legal liability, and he'd have ended up with a hayday in this case.

Instead, it just made the cops look a little unprofessional, and the casino employees a little "bullish". If anything, he attempted to martyr himself for no true purpose, successfully outing himself nationwide for what he "does", for no gain. Now, of course, he'd be able to sue the pants off of the Casino should they provide his name and photograph to the public, and that would be a walk in the park affair, but on the whole "they" are smarter than that.

[JustinM]

Instead, it just made the cops look a little unprofessional, and the casino employees a little "bullish".

It's a little more serious then that. The video shows the head of security grab a patron and take him to a back-room by force. That's 2nd Degree Assault and False Imprisonment. These are criminal charges that can and will be pursued. At 7:14 in the back-room video "you also forfeit any or all winnings and amenities while this eviction remains in effect" in connection with the assault this is Attempted Robbery, attempted because the head of security backs off when the patron objects to physically handing over the chips. It's also a trespass of chattels and breach of contract.

As for the civil violations, when Police act under color of law in assisting casino staff to violate a patrons rights, that's Civil Conspiracy.

Interesting that this is how the casino reacts when they see a player lose $2800. At a 1-4 spread with 6 decks, I wouldn't even consider this session to be advantage play.

Perhaps they were bored and didn't know what to do with their millions worth of surveillance equipment.

This case reminds me of a case McDuff did:
http://www.bj21.com/advantageplay/la...s/SDOC6643.pdf

[Aslan]

It's a little more serious then that. The video shows the head of security grab a patron and take him to a back-room by force. That's 2nd Degree Assault and False Imprisonment. These are criminal charges that can and will be pursued. At 7:14 in the back-room video "you also forfeit any or all winnings and amenities while this eviction remains in effect" in connection with the assault this is Attempted Robbery, attempted because the head of security backs off when the patron objects to physically handing over the chips. It's also a trespass of chattels and breach of contract.

As for the civil violations, when Police act under color of law in assisting casino staff to violate a patrons rights, that's Civil Conspiracy.

Interesting that this is how the casino reacts when they see a player lose $2800. At a 1-4 spread with 6 decks, I wouldn't even consider this session to be advantage play.

Perhaps they were bored and didn't know what to do with their millions worth of surveillance equipment.

This case reminds me of a case McDuff did:
http://www.bj21.com/advantageplay/la...s/SDOC6643.pdf

If he does reap a windfall here, I believe his career is over. Why did he out himself on the internet, pictures and all? It was unnecessary and I think that is what a lot of these comments are about. Yes, he was manhandled and illegally detained. The casino might get a hefty judgment against them or they might get a simple reprimand. What percentage of the time do such cases result in a worthwhile dollar amount? I'm not arguing against pursuing this case, but when the opportunity does arise, don't throw out half your case by giving up your ID, and on top of that, outing yourself in public.

[MJGolf]

If he does reap a windfall here, I believe his career is over. Why did he out himself on the internet, pictures and all? What percentage of the time do such cases result in a worthwhile dollar amount? I'm not arguing against pursuing this case, but when the opportunity does arise, don't throw out half your case by giving up your ID, and on top of that, outing yourself in public.

I think this is the crux of the matter. If he didn't get the tapes through request through the district attorney, he would never have had any proof whatsoever. And IF he pursues the case, he will be outed....so to speak.... because litigation, unless under very specific circumstances IS public record. So it becomes more along Norm's question..........was it worth it or not? I think he wins for false imprisonment....maybe some assault. They are breaking their own states rules by not cashing the chips or threatening to take them. We all know card counting is legal. They are not accusing him of cheating. So what is the value of this case? That depends upon the jury that is sat. I don't think ANY attorney would rely solely on a judge alone to decide this case. No matter what; doubt it's a "life changing" monetary award.

Nor I don't think it's worth giving up a lifetime of playing cards BUT maybe he has other motives? Will he become famous? Will he be able to "cash in" on this notoriety to become a "blackjack expert"? Who knows what he really wants? But I do know that from my observation of the questioning by the police and while he was backroomed, I sure got the feeling that he was petrified or at the least very nervous. That this was not really some stunt at that time of the video. But I also saw that he didn't have his arm restrained all the way back to the room. So was he initially planning on going after the casino? Then became scared when law enforcement became involved? Who knows?

[JustinM]

But I also saw that he didn't have his arm restrained all the way back to the room.

Yes Norm this is Justin.

If you look at the assault video my arm is restrained all the way to the back-room.

I was using a players card that day all they had to do was key in my card and pull up my info that way. When I first saw the security staff I thought I was going to be 86ed, instead they demanded that I go with them and stopped me when I tried to walk towards the exit.

[SiMi]

Hi, Justin!

Best of luck! The arrogance/ignorance of the cops was typical based on my experience as a lawyer (now retired). The stupidity of the Casino managers is almost beyond belief when viewed in retrospect. Looks like a VERY good civil case to me (False Imprisonment, Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress, Assault, Battery, Defamation come to mind instantly) and, if the public "servants" at the District Attorneys office weren't in the tank for the Big Guys, several crimes should be prosecuted (but that won't happen).

Thanks for posting the video!!
SiMi