Local Casinos and AP regulars.

[mushin]

There has been some talk about the local APer playing at their local joint and the need to preserve longevity etc. This prompted some additional thoughts on the Casino / Local Player relationship. Outside of places like Las Vegas and Atlantic City the local player / casino relationship is pretty important. Local players are the bread and butter of the local establishment. By cultivating a lasting relationship with the surrounding population they gradually build their income stream and ultimately their profits and bankroll. If I were to run a local casino my primary goal would be to attract the disposable income (primarily The Dining Out and Entertainment budget) of as many residents within first a 1 hour radius of the casino. These players would build the foundation out the casino's revenue for years to come. Show them a good value for their money and treat them nice so they want to come back. Each time they come back as a casino I would have more opportunity to profit in the long term. I would not worry too much about any substantial wins they have and would do all I could to show them a value for their losses in the form of comps etc.

On the topic of patron wins I would probably try to establish overall the amount of money in what I would call flux between the casino and my regular local players but not worry too much about it. Each win they take home reinforces the relationship and each loss they have should not deter them from returning in the future if they were treated well as most of these players are simply reallocating the Dining and Entertainment budget. Now if I could have "through the use of a players card" a decent understanding of how much money is in flux I could easily assume most of that money as money in the bank for my casino unless something were done to alienate the player and make them not return.

Drilling down to table games and Black Jack I would be concerned with APers but primarily worried about the large bet hit and run style players most. This would be primarily because I know I would have little opportunity to get that money back and it would be an immediate drain on the casino bankroll. For larger bet Aper locals I would be concerned but to a lesser degree. In a since these players are somewhat like a parasitic symbiotic relationship. One one hand they are draining money from the casino but on the other side of the coin they are helping to a degree.

The ways in which they help is: (No particular order)
1.) Every time someone wins at Black Jack it instills a sense of hope for other players as they think "That guy just won $1000 playing blackjack. Maybe I can." The idea that Black Jack can be beaten is what makes it popular and draws people back. When people come they play and thus the casino has more opportunity to access the entertainment budget of the patrons.

2.) Taxes are off set. Many local casinos pay taxes that can be quite substantial. If a local APer wins and they continue to play regularly I can somewhat safely assume that as long as that player keeps coming back the casino can safely assume that we have an opportunity to recapture some of the past winnings through the normal variances of play. Thus their winnings could be considered a "tax free" holding account. The trick here is to mitigate the damages.

3.) They can help to subsidize the casino payroll thorough tips. There are some APers that don't tip but there are also many regular players that don't either. But if you have an APer that does tip there is some benefit to this.

4.) Other revenue streams from apers, Meals, Drinks, Entertainment, Other non AP play. If a local APer is identified as not being a professional player then they still offer value to the casino. Take a Male APer that plays 2 to 3 times a week but also visits with their Wife or a date. This gives great opportunity to recover any winnings either from the individual or others in their party. While they play alone they are not likely to play too many other games when they have someone with them they can easily switch to "date night" mode and let their AP guard down.

All this is to say that a while a local casino is not going to roll out the red carpet for APers I can see how they might have a certain level of tolerance for APers that don't milk the cow dry. Then again all I am say might just as well be me dreaming.

[Avincow]

I agree with everything except 2. If they want a tax write off they can just give to charity and then spend 10x as much in advertising to brag about it. They don't need help from the AP as far as taxes are concerned.

[ZeeBabar]

Good post, Mushin. My local joint has tough games. The 6 deck gets 1.2-1.5 cut off, H17, no surrender. The DD game is double 9-11, no doubling on splits (unless 9-11 total), No re-splits but pen is generally 75%. I play there to practice and spend free time. I win some and lose some but my max bet is under $200. After 8 months this year, I am only winning about $3k. I play rated and I use no cover, going lock step with the count. I am quite sure they know I count but my 1-6 bet spread on DD games does not worry them. Every now and then, if I am winning around $1k, they have reduced the penn to about 60%, usually by nudging or whispering to dealer but my smaller wins don't bother them.

the fact they know my regular employer and my salary probably relaxes them.

[bigplayer]

If the game is good and you know for a fact it's been around unchanged for many years you should probably play politely, rated, and milk it for both comps and profits.

If the game is bad you have pretty much got to blast it aggressively or don't bother with it. In this case I'd play mostly unrated until you know what the casino tolerance level is. You'll have big swings if you play big then rated play is eventually how you'll want to go with it, but get a players card for the first time when you have a big loss so that you're starting off as a loser.

If the game is good but only recently became good, you should probably not milk it because someone else (another AP) is going to come to town and burn your game down in fairly short order. Great games that suddenly become great seldom last more than 6 months to a year unless every casino in the area has equally great games to spread out the AP action. When all AP's flock to a suddenly great game it just cannot last. Games like this you should play unrated because when the bleeding starts everyone is going to get thrown out. You can usually tell when a casino is about to start cleaning house. A new management team is suddenly hired and pen suddenly gets bad. Limits might go from $2000 to $500 suddenly on a bunch of tables. That is your cue to lay low and get the hell out of there because players are about to get tossed out of there for good. If you can survive or avoid the bloodbath you may be able to play there in a 6-12 months when things calm down.

[moo321]

Yep. Conditions tend to get bad fast, and then drift toward being good again. Casinos overreact to a few big scores, then slowly realize they're losing money by offering bad games (particularly with bad pen).

[Marlene]

Yep. Conditions tend to get bad fast, and then drift toward being good again. Casinos overreact to a few big scores, then slowly realize they're losing money by offering bad games (particularly with bad pen).

Or never realize and/or don't care. Remember, in the mind of casino bosses high hold %age is better than increased profits.

[Three]

Well an army of people buying in heavy playing one hand at table min and leaving win, lose or draw should be their worst nightmare.

[Bigdaddy]

There has been some talk about the local APer playing at their local joint and the need to preserve longevity etc. This prompted some additional thoughts on the Casino / Local Player relationship. Outside of places like Las Vegas and Atlantic City the local player / casino relationship is pretty important. Local players are the bread and butter of the local establishment. By cultivating a lasting relationship with the surrounding population they gradually build their income stream and ultimately their profits and bankroll. If I were to run a local casino my primary goal would be to attract the disposable income (primarily The Dining Out and Entertainment budget) of as many residents within first a 1 hour radius of the casino. These players would build the foundation out the casino's revenue for years to come. Show them a good value for their money and treat them nice so they want to come back. Each time they come back as a casino I would have more opportunity to profit in the long term. I would not worry too much about any substantial wins they have and would do all I could to show them a value for their losses in the form of comps etc.

On the topic of patron wins I would probably try to establish overall the amount of money in what I would call flux between the casino and my regular local players but not worry too much about it. Each win they take home reinforces the relationship and each loss they have should not deter them from returning in the future if they were treated well as most of these players are simply reallocating the Dining and Entertainment budget. Now if I could have "through the use of a players card" a decent understanding of how much money is in flux I could easily assume most of that money as money in the bank for my casino unless something were done to alienate the player and make them not return.

Drilling down to table games and Black Jack I would be concerned with APers but primarily worried about the large bet hit and run style players most. This would be primarily because I know I would have little opportunity to get that money back and it would be an immediate drain on the casino bankroll. For larger bet Aper locals I would be concerned but to a lesser degree. In a since these players are somewhat like a parasitic symbiotic relationship. One one hand they are draining money from the casino but on the other side of the coin they are helping to a degree.

The ways in which they help is: (No particular order)
1.) Every time someone wins at Black Jack it instills a sense of hope for other players as they think "That guy just won $1000 playing blackjack. Maybe I can." The idea that Black Jack can be beaten is what makes it popular and draws people back. When people come they play and thus the casino has more opportunity to access the entertainment budget of the patrons.

2.) Taxes are off set. Many local casinos pay taxes that can be quite substantial. If a local APer wins and they continue to play regularly I can somewhat safely assume that as long as that player keeps coming back the casino can safely assume that we have an opportunity to recapture some of the past winnings through the normal variances of play. Thus their winnings could be considered a "tax free" holding account. The trick here is to mitigate the damages.

3.) They can help to subsidize the casino payroll thorough tips. There are some APers that don't tip but there are also many regular players that don't either. But if you have an APer that does tip there is some benefit to this.

4.) Other revenue streams from apers, Meals, Drinks, Entertainment, Other non AP play. If a local APer is identified as not being a professional player then they still offer value to the casino. Take a Male APer that plays 2 to 3 times a week but also visits with their Wife or a date. This gives great opportunity to recover any winnings either from the individual or others in their party. While they play alone they are not likely to play too many other games when they have someone with them they can easily switch to "date night" mode and let their AP guard down.

All this is to say that a while a local casino is not going to roll out the red carpet for APers I can see how they might have a certain level of tolerance for APers that don't milk the cow dry. Then again all I am say might just as well be me dreaming.

Great post Mush - just got back from my local store and this hits home big time. I've been working the DD games here for a couple years and I'm getting to know who the APs are.

Tonight was like AP musical chairs. I sit down at the $25 table, and after a few hands realize the guy next to me was on the count and spreading 1- 12+ using no cover. He looked like the Wikipedia definition of a card counter. I'll call him "Poindexter". So I know I need to move on soon. I decided to stay for one more shuffle. In the meantime, another AP that I recognized from a prior session rolls up to the table (NMSE) and watches the cards for a bit. After watching me fire off a few big bets in high counts he realizes that he needs to move on. So we both moved on and left Poindexter alone.

Moral of the story - a local player, playing rated and spreading 1 - 12 on this game will have no issues. They like regular customers. The pit crew is unbelievably nice and accommodating. The only concern for the milking AP would be to manage the long-term win/loss record (i.e. rat-holing techniques, etc.).

All that being said, I know SGC will eventually show up and burn this game to the ground. I'm ok with that. I know many other good games in the region. As Hyman Roth said: "This is the business we've chosen."

[Three]

All that being said, I know SGC will eventually show up and burn this game to the ground. I'm ok with that. I know many other good games in the region. As Hyman Roth said: "This is the business we've chosen."

Most casinos will just BO the AP that is a true threat or use other countermeasures that make the AP choose to move on but if they don't protect the game from true threats the game can be burned.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Bigdaddy's use of the name - Poindexter:

" ... one who looks and acts like a nerd but does not posses the super-natural intelligence of a nerd."