VerdugoJohn: Prof Ed Thorp of Beat the Dealer

[VerdugoJohn]

The History Channel is airing the program described below...folks who have read the book might be interested...

PROFESSOR BLACKJACK (airing Tuesday, March 8th at 9:00 p.m. ET/PT)

In 1961, when Las Vegas was under heavy mafia influence, a young MIT math professor devised a revolutionary and completely legal card-counting scheme that had the potential to make him a fortune. A mob slickster approached the young professor and the two forged a partnership that would change the casino industry forever.

[Lightning]

I saw it and it was a nice historical perspective. It?s been a long time since I read ?Beat the Dealer?, but one thing seemed incorrect in the show. The show seemed to imply Dr. Thorp was using a point count on his first Nevada trip, whereas I thought he stated in his book that he used his ten count system on that trip. I recommend watching it in one of the other showings this week.

[VerdugoJohn]

You are right...he used 10 count per the book, and also Mr Y., who was part of the Reno trip, was not mentioned.

Other minor point, I saw once instance of the dealer checking for a natural by looking at a reflector glass in the table...I thought dealers would have peeked under the cards in 1961. Also, I don't know if casinos used bicycle backed cards, I thought they have always used diamonds.

I enjoyed the show.

I think Ed Thorp did the right thing by publishing his findings, and thus making legit his research...Computers were owned only by large corps, universities and the government back then, and putting that resource to personal gain would have showed a lack of character and an abuse of position. Fortunately, Dr. Thorp has academic ethics and we are all grateful to for his contribution.

[Don Schlesinger]

> I saw it and it was a nice historical
> perspective. It?s been a long time since I
> read ?Beat the Dealer?, but one thing seemed
> incorrect in the show. The show seemed to
> imply Dr. Thorp was using a point count on
> his first Nevada trip, whereas I thought he
> stated in his book that he used his ten
> count system on that trip. I recommend
> watching it in one of the other showings
> this week.

I wrote to Ed about this last night. I don't think he would mind if I shared his reply to me on our board. Think of it as a special "bonus" for ap.com readers!

Don

"Re the +- count: definitely a factual error. What actually happened was this: Shannon and I discussed the +- count in early 1961 as a simplification of the ultimate strategy, and I knew the idea of using the gradient to estimate the betting power of any counting system (vs. the ultimate, i.e. vs. the approximately correct effects of removal of individual cards). I elected to go with the Ten Count instead because, among other reasons (1) people seemed to believe it more easily--Kimmel in particular (2) in one or two deck BJ dealt deep, the difference in power seemed small (3) and people liked the fact that it was exact for insurance. With the rediscovery of the +- count(s) by Dubner, Einstein and others, and the wide use of multiple decks, the shift to the +- count was indicated."

[ES]

Who was Shannon?

[eothorp]

> Who was Shannon?
Claude Shannon, credited with the mathematical theory of information.

[ES]

Was he connected with blackjack or gambling at all?

[Edward O. Thorp]

> Was he connected with blackjack or gambling
> at all?
Yes re gambling;first wearable computer to beat roulette. Lots more info in a new book coming this fall by William Poundstone titled "Fortune's Formula."

[ES]

Thanks. It's an honor to "talk" with you on this board. The early printing of the paperback "Beat the Dealer" describe and carry an advertisement for a "Beat the Dealer" computer, actually a circular slide rule for the 10 Count. Is this device available anywhere? I KNOW THAT USING IT IN A CASINO IS ILLEGAL, but it my understanding that possession of it is not, much like antique slot machines.

[Dog Hand]

One other anachronism...

When "Thorp" buys in, he uses Series 2001 benji's, the ones with the big portrait of Franklin.

Dog Hand

[Don Schlesinger]

> One other anachronism...

> When "Thorp" buys in, he uses
> Series 2001 benji's, the ones with the big
> portrait of Franklin.

Right. I saw that. And, re the above, I doubt casinos used Bicycle cards then, and, of course, there were no readers.

Also, when Thorp played his first big hand, the guy to his left broke, and his cards were scooped up. Next thing we see, the dealer is breaking, saying "Everybody wins," and paying not only Thorp but the guy who broke, whose hand has been mysteriously resurrected. Bad job of editing.

Don

[Edward O. Thorp]

> Right. I saw that. And, re the above, I
> doubt casinos used Bicycle cards then, and,
> of course, there were no readers.

> Also, when Thorp played his first big hand,
> the guy to his left broke, and his cards
> were scooped up. Next thing we see, the
> dealer is breaking, saying "Everybody
> wins," and paying not only Thorp but
> the guy who broke, whose hand has been
> mysteriously resurrected. Bad job of
> editing.

> Don
They typically used cards with a uniform small diamond pattern and there were no borders. Perfect for second dealing, as it happens. The dealer looked at his hole card by bending up the corner--which led players to exploit "spooks" and "warps" and the eventual discontinuing of that dealer procedure.
--Ed

[Parker]

> They typically used cards with a uniform
> small diamond pattern and there were no
> borders. Perfect for second dealing, as it
> happens. The dealer looked at his hole card
> by bending up the corner--which led players
> to exploit "spooks" and
> "warps" and the eventual
> discontinuing of that dealer procedure.
> --Ed

Thanks for that information, and welcome to the Parker Pages. It is an honor to have you posting here.