Mohegan Sun Ct goes 6:5.

[Halbruno]

All the games are still hand shuffled. I noticed a few dealers having trouble managing the extra decks during the shuffle. I don't know if the number of decks has changed in the HL room, Paymypush?

This will change my strategy. Despite the usually bad penetration there, I would still go to play six deck since it is easier and faster than the 8 decks at Foxwoods. Sometimes I would run into a dealer who would deal to a deck. Now that they are cutting off 2 decks from the 8 deck shoe, there is not much incentive to play there anymore. Even though I wasn't impressed, I will choose New World Resorts in Monticello, NY the next time I want to play 6D.

[paymypush]

All the games are still hand shuffled. I noticed a few dealers having trouble managing the extra decks during the shuffle. I don't know if the number of decks has changed in the HL room, Paymypush?

This will change my strategy. Despite the usually bad penetration there, I would still go to play six deck since it is easier and faster than the 8 decks at Foxwoods. Sometimes I would run into a dealer who would deal to a deck. Now that they are cutting off 2 decks from the 8 deck shoe, there is not much incentive to play there anymore. Even though I wasn't impressed, I will choose New World Resorts in Monticello, NY the next time I want to play 6D.

As of yesterday the HL rooms were using the old rules. The claim is that they are going to 8 decks but retaining S17. I'll stop by tomorrow to check.

Foxwoods is looking better and better. My base bet is $25 and I can no longer play that at either casino without H17 and 8 decks so I'M going to take a serious look at penetration. I already know the answer to that though.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

In general, casinos offer only H17 shoe games and DD games unless
they are willing to play for sizable stakes, and place themselves in the
fishbowl of Surveillance.

Brilliant marketing strategy, that I believe began with "The Evil Empire"
as we referred to the Harrahs empire.

I remember when this transition happened in the early 1980's. Young
people nowadays have no idea that(until then) the rules and pen' were
universal whether you were betting $5 or $5,000.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

In response to this thread, in recent years I have found several casinos
in the MidWest and in the East, who deal 6 deckers with the very best
rules while directing their dealers to cut off ¼ deck! Yes, you read that
correctly. A dozen cards or so AND the best rules for a House Edge as low
as 0.26%. I quit playing at such venues because they depend on the vigilance
of their Surveillance to '86 players who are skillful or have sizable cumulative
winnings.

It is clear, as taught by the casino consultant, Bill Zender, that the casinos will
earn more money by dealing very deeply.

[Dbs6582]

It is clear, as taught by the casino consultant, Bill Zender, that the casinos will
earn more money by dealing very deeply.

Okay, so now that we’ve established Zender is the expert on this matter, does that mean every casino can earn more money by dealing deeper, no matter where they are currently dealing? Is there a mathematical formula that says exactly how deep a casino needs to deal to maximize earnings?

I’m just trying to follow this logic to its logically conclusion. If deeper is always better, than that means dealing a deck or shoe all the way to the last card should be the way a casino can earn the maximum amount of money. If that’s true, why haven’t casinos figured this out? Why aren’t they dealing to the last card?

Is that what Zender thinks? Casinos should deal every game (DD and shoe) to the last card. If he doesn’t, then what does he say is the optimum pen for maximum earnings? Is there any science or math to this? Or it just something people believe because some consultant said it?

What does Zender think about how fast a dealer should deal? How about how many tables to open? Should there always be some dealers standing behind empty tables? That’s what I see at almost all the casinos I go to, except sometimes when they are very busy.

Does Zender explain how dealing deeper generates more demand? This is the concept I’m struggling to understand.

Also, does this debunk all of Gosjean’s beliefs that a casinos shouldn’t try to take people’s money too quickly? He believes taking people’s money too quickly hurts customer retention. How does this play into the whole cut card debate?

This topic is a little more complicated than most think. There are a lot of variables at play. The answer is outside of what math can tell us, and it’s probably different for different casinos. Zender says one thing, but I’m sure there are a lot of other casino consultants saying something else. There’s a reason different casinos operate differently when it comes to the cut card. It’s not quite as straightforward as most people think.

[ShipTheCookies]

It is clear, as taught by the casino consultant, Bill Zender, that the casinos will
earn more money by dealing very deeply.

Only if the game is constantly being played. Unfortunately, this is never the case.

[Three]

Only if the game is constantly being played. Unfortunately, this is never the case.

When would the game be played more with less pen? Every table open would deal fewer rounds per hour. Less pen isn't going to get more players into the casino. Most likely it will have no affect on patrons showing up but there will be some that go somewhere else because of it. If the game is not being played pen is irrelevant. Your argument is like saying an umbrella isn't a good idea in the rain because it doesn't always rain. It is false logic because you don't need an umbrella to stay dry if no rain drops are falling. The only time you need to stay dry is when it is raining. Just like the only time a casino can make any money is when someone is playing. But if someone is playing more rounds per hour increases the casinos theoretical win rate. Increasing pen is one way to increase the number of rounds an hour the players actually playing at the table play.

[Dbs6582]

Increasing pen is one way to increase the number of rounds an hour the players actually playing at the table play.

Of course it is. No one is debating that point. Hiring faster dealers will also increase the number of rounds per hour. Casinos could have policies where they don’t allow the dealer to chit chat with customers. That would definitely increase the number of rounds per hour. Are you suggesting casinos do that? If your only objective is to increase number of rounds per hour, I can think of many policies the casino could put in place.

Some casinos also have automatic shuffle machines to increase the number of rounds per hour. I know of one casino that took them out since the customers liked the dead time during shuffling. Was this casino making a mistake? This casino always has a lot of dealers standing in front of empty tables.

Btw, if casinos have automatic shuffle machines does this negate the pen argument sicnce there is no wasted time shuffling. I get it takes a little more time to cut a new deck and place the old deck in this machine.

Since it takes about the same amount of time to shuffle one deck as two decks, would casinos back in the 50s made more money by dealing two decks down to the last card, rather than one deck? This would have generated more hands per hour.

I think it’s very naive to just think all a casino has to do is increase pen, and pesto they are more profitable. There is a lot more to it than that. There is NOT some simple calculation like Stealth has done to show how much extra a casino can earn by placing the cut card further back.

Btw, no one has answered my questions on where the cut card should be placed to maximize earnings? Since Zender is the expert, what does he say? Does he think casinos should have no cut card and deal to the last card. This would maximize the number of rounds per hour.

One last question: Why is it so important to APs that casinos make more money. Maybe casinos are already making all the money their coffers can hold. This last question was sarcastic. It’s probably questions like this that get APs upset at me.

[ShipTheCookies]

When would the game be played more with less pen? Every table open would deal fewer rounds per hour. Less pen isn't going to get more players into the casino. Most likely it will have no affect on patrons showing up but there will be some that go somewhere else because of it. If the game is not being played pen is irrelevant. Your argument is like saying an umbrella isn't a good idea in the rain because it doesn't always rain. It is false logic because you don't need an umbrella to stay dry if no rain drops are falling. The only time you need to stay dry is when it is raining. Just like the only time a casino can make any money is when someone is playing. But if someone is playing more rounds per hour increases the casinos theoretical win rate. Increasing pen is one way to increase the number of rounds an hour the players actually playing at the table play.

You really are not that smart....are you??? How much money is a casino making dealing 5.8 of 6 decks if NOBODY is playing? Huh? Please tell me this smartass!!!

[DSchles]

"Most likely it will have no affect on patrons"

Relapse!

Don

[21forme]

Don - I presume you're highlighting text, then copying and pasting, rather than retyping it. In case you're not aware, you can highlight text, then click the Quote button that appears. This will Quote the text and indicate its source.

For example:

Relapse!

[Freightman]

Don - I presume you're highlighting text, then copying and pasting, rather than retyping it. In case you're not aware, you can highlight text, then click the Quote button that appears. This will Quote the text and indicate its source.

For example:

I wasn't, and thanks. I use my iPad almost exclusively for this site - didn't think it was available.

[DSchles]

In case you're not aware, you can highlight text, then click the Quote button that appears. This will Quote the text and indicate its source.

I'm aware now! :-) Thanks. Knew how to do it for the entire quote, but not for a partial.

Don