Part Time Professional Players (PTPPs)

[Aslan]

I stated in a thread on ROR that when I encountered a related but off the track post, I would start a new thread to discuss the topic if I thought it worthy to comment on. The idea of PTPTs is one that interests me and worth a discussion of IMHO. I hope SiMi does not mind my copying his post here; it is done in all innocence, if in fact it matters.

Hi, marriedputter!

I enjoyed reading your explanation about talking to Dealers. I have come to believe that, since Casinos are now located all over the place, there are a lot of AP BJ players in the world who do not have scores of Casinos to 'hit and run' within easy reach. These players may have only 1-3 Casinos in their area and they quickly realize their situation requires a different style of play or they will be barred from any action in their area. (I think some authors might refer to such people as "recreational players" but I do not believe that term is apt in many of these cases.)

I suspect that many of these players are "part-time professional players (PTPP)" and they cannot, as a practical matter, push every advantage to the max, treat the Casino staff as robots and fail to blend in with the ploppies if they hope to survive. "Longevity" to such players is measured in YEARS rather than hours or minutes. Much of the advice one reads about AP Blackjack seems to ignore these players.

Many of the posts here seem to come at every topic from only one point of view, usually that of a full-time player who is not interested in developing a style of play that permits YEARS of hassle-free, advantage play at a few places. It's a tricky art and seems to be under-recognized. I've often thought it would help if the posters here would clarify that they are in this PTPP category.

It seems that when a 'hit and run' player meets a PTPP, it's like two ships passing in the night...

Chat 'em up if it helps!
SiMi

I think you are right on in contrasting full time APs, many of whom practice the hit and run strategy, with the part timers who play a limited area where longevity is important to them. I would also point out that the older you get the less appealing is the prospect of running from casino to casino to ply your trade, at least, that's been my personal experience.

[SiMi]

Hi, Aslan!

No problem chatting over here as far as I'm concerned.

As you say, age and possibly other issues such as physical limitations could contribute to someone avoiding 'hit and run.' There are also people who enjoy playing properly with an edge partly for the challenge and may not need the income. These folks are not interested in Max EV, slash and burn styles but are still 'professionals' in the way they conduct themselves and ply their skills. These people walk a fine line and probably find, as I have, that it's as much art as science to keep the welcome mat out for years. Blending in and being an asset are two general skills I believe are VERY useful. Being extremely observant is also VERY helpful. Others probably have lots of ideas.

Best,
SiMi

[Mickey]

Excellent discussion. I certainly consider myself a PTPP so here's a piggyback'ed question along that style of player: when leaving a session after a WIN:

1.) How do you acknowledge the PB while getting up and leaving (if at all), particularly if he is glancing over at you & the dealer (to acknowledge the color up) or walks over to the table while you're leaving?

2.) How much thought do you put into the PB'S reaction to you, particularly if you're trying to be nice and "thank him" while leaving only to find he is not smiling back and just doesn't look happy (hardly making eye contact with you when you're clearly trying to give a polite goodbye, etc)?

[Dieter]

1.) How do you acknowledge the PB while getting up and leaving (if at all), particularly if he is glancing over at you & the dealer (to acknowledge the color up) or walks over to the table while you're leaving?

2.) How much thought do you put into the PB'S reaction to you, particularly if you're trying to be nice and "thank him" while leaving only to find he is not smiling back and just doesn't look happy (hardly making eye contact with you when you're clearly trying to give a polite goodbye, etc)?

1. Normal conversation. Wins are a normal part of the game, even for civilians. It's OK for them to congratulate you on a winning day, it's their job - they want the civilians to remember their wins more than they remember their losses. If you're a PTPP where you're playing the same places week after week after week for years, the PB's all know you by name anyway. It's just not a big deal. (Caveat: my "neighborhood" places have no heat, period.)

2. The part I worry about is that the PB's and dealers don't think I'm an obnoxious jerk. These people are my coworkers, in a sense. I'm going to be dealing with them for years. It doesn't make sense to create animosity. You don't need to be thought of as "the nicest, most wonderful person" all the time, but you need to never be thought of as the most horrible, undesirable person at the table, ever.

If you do end up playing the same place for years, you may start to hear dealers (and PB's, and hosts, and...) grouse about the unpleasant players. That's probably a good sign; they don't seem to complain to the unpleasant players.

[Aslan]

1.) Alot depends on the pit boss. His body langauge will likely tell a story. One in particular, makes several stops to check the tray or the size of the dealer tip stack. He never smiles around me but is jovial with others. If I were in his home I'd want to exit now type. It's ridiculous. He acts as though he wants to start hi fives with someone when I have a losing session...and just can't believe I had a winning session on his watch. Solution; I just don't play during his shift anymore. How's the Micheal Jackson song go "one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch?"

2.) I don't tried to hide anything. I give them credit for knowing the score. Tipping the dealer and saying "it was fun" even in a loss seems to carry more credibility and respect with the pit. I might say something like, "maybe I'll come later and try to get even" or "we'll play best 2 out of 3 after lunch."
If he/she is coming toward the table after a session win, I'm not going to scurry off in a hurry as though I just did something wrong. I don't say anything until they do - then a humble response like "better to be lucky than good."
Mainly, don't be a sore loser. The guy that storms off in a huff will likely leave a bad impression/memory. However, I try to circle around a machine or stop to pretend to check a score on the ticker to see his/her face when I'm not within their eyesight. If I see a look of concern then I give them some space.

Oh and by all means, if other players are winning and giving the pit the business, it's time to exit. Guilt by association and a whizzed off pit boss are not a good combination.

If I win, I am more and more inclined to tip the dealer as I exit the game. I have finally come to accept that tipping is nearly as expected as restaurant tipping, even though no service is actually performed by the dealer other than being congenial and helping to make your stay pleasant, something I suppose you could say should be expected anyway. Not tipping I believe is a clue to being an advantage player, unless your stay is short and sweet. If you want to be accepted as a ploppy, you have to act like a ploppy. There's no set way a ploppy acts, but tipping is certainly one of them. Since I play for the sociability in addition to the money, it would be out of character to never tip, whether I think the dealer deserves it or not. YMMV

[NotEnoughHeat]

If I win, I am more and more inclined to tip the dealer as I exit the game. I have finally come to accept that tipping is nearly as expected as restaurant tipping, even though no service is actually performed by the dealer other than being congenial and helping to make your stay pleasant, something I suppose you could say should be expected anyway. Not tipping I believe is a clue to being an advantage player, unless your stay is short and sweet. If you want to be accepted as a ploppy, you have to act like a ploppy. There's no set way a ploppy acts, but tipping is certainly one of them. Since I play for the sociability in addition to the money, it would be out of character to never tip, whether I think the dealer deserves it or not. YMMV

I live in a country where the tipping culture is a bit different. It's not as expected in general outside a standard nice restaurant. This may or may not be because none of our minimum wage laws reflect tipping. The dealers where I'm at have a pretty decent starting wage ($10.4 USD, not paid in USD though) which is about $2.40 above minimum wage. Tipping still happens at the tables from what I can tell, but about 93% of it is from the extra blackjack (naturals) money people don't want to bother with (dollar chips and 0.5c chips).

[Blitzkrieg]

If I win, I am more and more inclined to tip the dealer as I exit the game. I have finally come to accept that tipping is nearly as expected as restaurant tipping, even though no service is actually performed by the dealer other than being congenial and helping to make your stay pleasant, something I suppose you could say should be expected anyway. Not tipping I believe is a clue to being an advantage player, unless your stay is short and sweet. If you want to be accepted as a ploppy, you have to act like a ploppy. There's no set way a ploppy acts, but tipping is certainly one of them. Since I play for the sociability in addition to the money, it would be out of character to never tip, whether I think the dealer deserves it or not. YMMV

I don't like to tip the blackjack dealers. I've gotten in the habit of not tipping them at all. Some of them are nice people but the dealers and me are not on the same team/side. Maybe I would tip a dealer if they did things like broke house protocol and took me a little deeper in the deck when they place the cut card before a round starts. That would show me that their on the players side. Then there are times where some dealers will do a reshuffle a few cards before the cut card has shown, that pisses me off. If they were a good dealer and wanted a tip, then they will do things that the player wants, not want the house wants.

[Blitzkrieg]

In essence, we the blackjack player, are the dealers customer. My understanding is minimum wage is their salary. Therefore, a token tip covers an hour of their normal pay. There are little things a dealer does that warrant a tip - probably not a good idea to get into on the general forum. I'm not suggesting cheating - but a fair game is all I ask - and I'm willing to pay a little more for it - win or lose. Those following the house's directive of yammering their damn head off, shuffling early, and intentionally trying to trip you up can stand and look pretty at $8 an hour for all I care. Few (non-AP) players seek an empty table - the money lost by people coming and going in just one session is astounding...and they can't tip with their lose it all mentality. I seriously doubt many of them would've poppin into an empty table.

I don't look at it as blackjack players being the dealers customers. Blackjack players are customers of the corporations, the entity. Dealers are employees and they more than likely don't share in the ownership of the entity that they work for. I like to compare dealers and pit bosses to clerks.
Most of the dealers probably do work for minimum wage plus tips but that is what they negotiated for before they took the job. They knew what they were getting into taking such a job. As a player I'm not obligated to tip them, and the dealers don't have to put me on a guilt trip to invoke a toke. A fair game is all that anyone could expect and that's what I expect when I sit down to play. A dealer that wants to go above and beyond to give the player a great game by not acting like a stiff, that's a dealer I might tip. They better make me a believer and have me convinced that the BJ game they are dealing is the table I want to be on. So far I have yet to see a dealer who has impressed me as being player friendly. It takes more than a friendly smile and good looks to please me. Blackjack dealers are like robots.

[Blitzkrieg]

It's often difficult for an AP to get a fair game. Signals come from above to the Pit staight to the dealer. I'll admit they are few and far between as their allegiance goes to their minimum wage employer in lieu of a frequent tipper. Most don't get it. But the ones that do can be worth their wait in gold. It's really comes down to pen. The dealers I'm speaking of are decision makers as to when or when not to shuffle. Yes, I agree with you 100%, I'd have trouble throwing money at a robot on a shoe.

I'd like to believe that everyone at the casino is getting a fairly dealt game regardless of their skill level. That would be my general thinking about casino games by being a customer. I realize dealers take their orders from the pit and upstairs, they can't help it but that doesn't mean that they cannot give the players better penetration than what the house may call for and to keep the game running smoothly. Blackjack dealers need to learn how to hustle for tips as their dealing by giving better penetration into a game. Blackjack dealers need to learn how to think outside of the box instead of being the robots the casino trained them to be, the casinos are not tipping them, their using them for the gain of the entity.

[MJGolf]

It's often difficult for an AP to get a fair game. The dealers I'm speaking of are decision makers as to when or when not to shuffle.

I'd like to believe that everyone at the casino is getting a fairly dealt game regardless of their skill level. That would be my general thinking about casino games by being a customer. I realize dealers take their orders from the pit and upstairs, they can't help it but that doesn't mean that they cannot give the players better penetration than what the house may call for and to keep the game running smoothly. Blackjack dealers need to learn how to hustle for tips as their dealing by giving better penetration into a game. Blackjack dealers need to learn how to think outside of the box instead of being the robots the casino trained them to be, the casinos are not tipping them, their using them for the gain of the entity.

Man, this game has changed so much over the years. First, other than a hand held game where there might be a chance that a dealer could deal MAYBE one more round............how many dealers do you experience that ACTUALLY make a decision on penetration? Now it seems single decks have a specific round rule. Whether it's rule of six or even max two rounds like I have seen no matter HOW many players at the table. That was a sweat shop; and Bodarc and I have mentioned that place's name on other threads. And once a cut card is placed in a shoe, how is a dealer going to make a decision about dealing more rounds? The only choice I have seen is a dealer who MIGHT put the cut card a "few" more cards deeper in the deck/shoe after a shuffle. I have "joked" about that at tables..........said, "Man, tired of you shuffling so much......just cut the deck deeper and we both can play longer before you have to shuffle again". Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't. So many are scared of their jobs in this market that tipping alone is NOT going to make much difference. I mean after all, how much is your tip, if you are not going to affect your EV sizeably, is it going to affect THAT particular dealer when MOST share/pool their tips with the shift.............sometimes the entire crew through all shifts? So I guess I'm not seeing what you mean Moses about "dealers who can be decision makers". I would appreciate more insight there.

The last time.......and it was a while ago, I played at a place in Tunica where the dealers kept their OWN tips........kind of an anomaly any more, at least in the bigger gambling areas, and they got to know that I would tip, and we would make a "joint" decision as to further rounds being dealt. They would wink.........take my word about "looks like you have enough cards for another round, right" the "right" way. Or take me at my word, when I would say, "ahhhh....time to shuffle, right?" And they would do it. But I have NOT seen this in a long time.

I agree with Blitz in a perfect AP or even BJ friendly world. But it has changed so much. Don't you guys see any of this voluntary variation falling by the wayside in today's world? Man, I hope that conditions change but when I can find friendlier, better rules in my area, no matter how far I have to drive to get there v the larger gambling meccas like Vegas and Tunica why would I want to go play as often. It's just NOT as fun any more...........and other than being a counter, I don't know enough about other AP methods to use them to my benefit yet. It's a very, very miniscule advantage game and it's become LESS AND LESS FUN. I am so envious of KJ doing what he does. It's just SUCH a hard environment at the moment and until it DOES change, I agree with Aslan/Exoter...........it's going to be for fun and a small profit. And a hit and run game.

[Aslan]

I'd like to believe that everyone at the casino is getting a fairly dealt game regardless of their skill level. That would be my general thinking about casino games by being a customer. I realize dealers take their orders from the pit and upstairs, they can't help it but that doesn't mean that they cannot give the players better penetration than what the house may call for and to keep the game running smoothly. Blackjack dealers need to learn how to hustle for tips as their dealing by giving better penetration into a game. Blackjack dealers need to learn how to think outside of the box instead of being the robots the casino trained them to be, the casinos are not tipping them, their using them for the gain of the entity.

I honestly don't think that many dealers even realize that pen is a plus for the AP, but are often motivated by an aversion for dealing, cutting great pen for no other reason than prolonging the deal. Even stores where pen is determined by a notch can be overcome by a dealer slanting the cut card up or down. Sometimes, too, I feel that dealers who are in the know about pen and its benefit to APs, deliberately cut more cards than even dictated by house policy. These are the dealers who treat the house's money as if it were their own, delighting in beating every customer. I wonder what goes on in their heads? Do they look at players as being degenerate gamblers deserving to lose their cash? Sometimes they seem visibly upset when we win.

[SiMi]

Hey, Mickey!

PB treatment after a win.

1) I just have to comment that I try really hard to keep the appearance of a win down by rat holing. So, I almost never leave a table with a color up showing a BIG win. My approach is to tend to focus more on any other players at the table (or just sitting down) along the lines of, "Thanks a lot. It was really fun playing with you. Best of luck!" something like that. If I think I can pull it off, I'll comment loudly to another player, "Well, I almost got it all back." Or something like that to indicate that I am leaving with chips but I'm still down. I try to have at least one player I have been friendly with so I can chat with them mostly as I'm leaving. That's a real problem playing solo at a table.
If the PB is watching closely but NOT making eye contact (they are often checking the color up), I just ignore them since I don't want to force them to look at me. If they are watching closely and making eye contact with me (or trying), I give them a big smile and say, as I turn to leave, "Thanks, I had a great time." I don't want to get into a discussion so I keep moving.

2) I have thought a lot about the PB reactions to me. I have found that many of them seem to feel that they simply CANNOT appear to be friendly for whatever reason. It's not heat. It's just how they deal with the job. With these people, I just smile and nod to them no matter what s/he is doing (frowning, scowling, etc.). A few of them try to be friendly and, for those, I back off because I do NOT want to strike up a conversation of any length at all with them. I just want it to be brief and friendly at all times but not too personal.

Does that address your issues? What are your thoughts on a smooth exit?

Thanks for participating!
SiMi

[Mickey]

Does that address your issues? What are your thoughts on a smooth exit?

Awesome convo, SiMi...

One line that always seems to work quite well for me during the exiting color up is to say to the other players & dealer (in an almost jokingly enthusiastic way) "Woohoo! Now I'm almost EVEN!" with a big smile on my face. It almost always gets a laugh out of either the dealer or player(s) at the table and the PB hears this line within earshot to elude the fact that I'm still down at that establishment. I tend to be pretty social with EVERYONE at the table during entry & session play so that exit approach tends to work for me & my personality.

As for your comments on PBs having that IMpersonal persona to them and to not always take it as heat and makes sense also...

Thanks!