ASM machines Question

[mofungoo]

A lot of this conspiracy theory nonsense stems from the fact that the ASM checks the cards for irregularities such as missing or added cards before shuffling. However, the card reader is separate from the shuffler section and not connected to it in any way, so it is not possible for the shuffling mechanism to stack the deck.

The Shuffle Master Deck Mate II, a 1D poker shuffler, can put the cards into new card order. Doing so takes longer than a normal shuffle, and this model is not used for BJ anyway.

The casinos use the ASMs because they yield more hands per hour and the card reader offers better game protection. I am doing very well playing against ASMs. More hands per hour is good for me too, and I don't mind the assurance of knowing that all the cards are there.

[BJGenius007]

This is from #4 post in this thread and I add some comments:

Group 1: {2,3,4} x 6/13, face cards x 5/13, other cards x 2/13 (face card rich clump)

The goal is to double the intensity of {2,3,4} in this clump so it will increase the chance of getting pairs of 2, 3 or 4 but if you double after split, you like to get a small card. On the other hand, the dealer likes make a hand because of small card rich.

I should add. The most damage is group 1. By isolating the majority of {2, 3, 4} in one group, it tremendously increases the chance for the Basic Strategy players to bust their hands in playing the other 80% of the shoe (group 2 to group 5) because the lack of small cards.

This is what I look for when I play the first three shoes. Do {2, 3, 4} come out together regardless of TC? If there are more than twelve {2, 3, 4} in a span of twenty six cards (statistically it should be only six cards in a span of twenty six cards) and it happens periodically, ASM is in clumping mode.

[Three]

Group 1: {2,3,4} x 6/13, face cards x 5/13, other cards x 2/13 (face card rich clump)

The goal is to double the intensity of {2,3,4} in this clump so it will increase the chance of getting pairs of 2, 3 or 4 but if you double after split, you like to get a small card. On the other hand, the dealer likes make a hand because of small card rich.

Exactly what would you be doubling after you split?
Split 2,2v2-4: What card in this group of 13 next cards gives you a double? One of the 2 mystery cards? You need a 8 or 9.
Split 3,3v2-4: you need one of the two mystery cards to be 7 or 8.
Split 4.4v2-4: Not a split to begin with so you need 1 of the 2 mystery cards to be a 5 or 6 dealer upcard and the other be a 6 or 7 to give you the double.
So much for that theory.

[Three]

I actually responded to this thread last night with a lengthy post, but then deleted, figuring 'why bother'.

I had seen the flaws in all his clumps but I deleted the effort to point them out. ^Like KJ said^

[BJGenius007]

Exactly what would you be doubling after you split?
Split 2,2v2-4: What card in this group of 13 next cards gives you a double? One of the 2 mystery cards? You need a 8 or 9.

Assume it is 2,2 v 2, the basic strategy says to split. But if the shoe is clumped in zones of five different groups and you are in group 1 zone, even if you get a very scarce 8 or 9 after the split then double, the next card is most likely 2, 3 or 4. Meanwhile the dealer never splits, so in zone of group 1, he will easily make a hand and beat the player who plays correct BS and has 2 hands of 12. Something like 2, 2, 10, 2, 3. Another example is 3, 3, 9, 2, 2. My point is that any card is possible but {2, 3, 4} is the primary cards in group 1 zone. I have seen ploppies never split and hit 12, 13, 14 no matter what the dealer's upcard is. Basically these ploppies play like the dealer. Hit every 12, 13, 14 and the difference is that he or she may stop at 15 and 16. These ploppies turn out to be the winners if ASM is in the clumping mode. Normally I saw BS players run out of their money first and fast, and need to sit and watch their ploppy friends play on these tables. As an AP, if I see two or three rotations of zone 1 early, then TC should be high in the near end of the shoe and I can make up the earlier loss by the spread. But it is not guaranteed. I should add one more thing. It is not a hard evidence. But I have only two blackjack in almost two hours. I side count aces. Ace count is constantly 10 to 12 short in the end of 8d shoe. It happened half of the times that day. For the other shoes, there were 8 to 10 aces in a span of 15 cards. I am saying all shoes I played that day had extreme ace clumping. Statistically it is impossible.

[Three]

I am saying all shoes I played that day had extreme ace clumping. Statistically it is impossible.

With a deck of cards everything is possible. I think you need a lessen in statistics.

[RobinHood21]

I've been told directly by the dealers at these casinos they are instucted to shuffle early on AP players.

Just to clear things up... Dealers are not ones to make a decision that strong as to who is and who isn't card counting (definitely not APing as "APing" can stretch the lines of cheating). Decisions like that are always left up to management. Procedures devised by management are put into place to shuffle when unusual jumps in bets occur. But that's it. Not dealer decisions.

[RobinHood21]

Statistically it is impossible.

Impossible??? LOL... I've mentioned the following before...

A coin flip... We all know is 50/50... But is it possible that you flip it 10 times and they all land on heads???

The answer is yes... Flip it a million times now... Is it possible that they all land on heads???

Yes again... Not at all likely, "statistically" speaking.

[KJ]

Just to clear things up... Dealers are not ones to make a decision that strong as to who is and who isn't card counting (definitely not APing as "APing" can stretch the lines of cheating). Decisions like that are always left up to management. Procedures devised by management are put into place to shuffle when unusual jumps in bets occur. But that's it. Not dealer decisions.

This is the countermeasure that continues to baffle me (as well as piss me off a bit). I do not see how this is legal. Shuffling away the good counts, while playing through the bad counts, IS changing the outcome of the game, which is supposed to be illegal.

Mind, you I am not faulting casino management from employing this countermeasure, since no one has told them not to. What I don't understand is how no one has challenged this procedure. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. I know Bob N has said on occasion, that he also believes this would not stand a challenge if one was ever made.

[RobinHood21]

This is the countermeasure that continues to baffle me (as well as piss me off a bit). I do not see how this is legal. Shuffling away the good counts, while playing through the bad counts, IS changing the outcome of the game, which is supposed to be illegal.

Mind, you I am not faulting casino management from employing this countermeasure, since no one has told them not to. What I don't understand is how no one has challenged this procedure. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. I know Bob N has said on occasion, that he also believes this would not stand a challenge if one was ever made.

Interesting... I'm not very good with the legal aspects of blackjack or casino games in general. But you bring something to my attention... While I was flooring I had to make decisions all the time that could effect the outcomes of games. And I really took a lot of pride in; A. keeping the players happy and B. not effecting the outcome.

A good example which happened almost every night was when dealers would make errors with the order of cards... Here's the scenario...

3 players at a table... 1st Player is dealt a total of eleven... 2nd total of 7... 3rd a 20... Dealer has a 6 showing.

Dealer skips 1st player completely and gives a ten to the 2nd player.

Every casino I have worked at management is not allowed to back up cards. Since it is a "miss-deal" I personally would allow everyone to continue the hand if they so choose or they can back their bets out if they choose also. So what generally happens is the ten stays and the 1st player receives the next card... which almost always seems to not be a ten! Then the hand is completed as if nothing happened (by most floor) Then we burn the deck or shoe. (remind you I have seen this mishandled oh so many times by bad floors) A lot of the times this happens the 1st Player will lose. The dealer makes a hand and scoops the money. Bad floors will just take the money and say, "we allowed you an opportunity to back out and you decided to continue the hand. Your bad."... Wrong!!!... Our bad... Some "nice" floors will give the 1st Player a push sometimes.

But we all know... and I've been in the 1st Players position before... the 1st Player should have won with a 21. But the casino changed the outcome of the cards (not on purpose). And then did not pay the player the money that he/she should have won.

If we are jumping bets on Table A. And are constantly being shuffled up on... We are missing out on hands that should have won/lost had they been dealt out.

Next door on Table B... The player flat betting gets to play through 30-50% more cards because he is flat betting!!!

A little prejudice if you ask me.

[RobinHood21]

"What are we playing??? Halfjack?"... LMAO!

[BJGenius007]

Impossible??? LOL... I've mentioned the following before...

A coin flip... We all know is 50/50... But is it possible that you flip it 10 times and they all land on heads???

The answer is yes... Flip it a million times now... Is it possible that they all land on heads???

Yes again... Not at all likely, "statistically" speaking.

Flipping a coin is a very bad example for my experience. It is more like drawing 400 balls from a box and put the balls into a matrix of 20 by 20. In detail, draw the ball one by one and fill the matrix from the upper left corner to the lower right right corner in row by row fashion. There are only 32 white balls of all 400 balls. What is the odds that at least 27 white balls appears on only 4 rows in every matrix after you repeat this 12 times? (In this example, there are at least 11 rows without any white ball. About 5 rows, each has only one white ball and 19 balls of other colors. Four rows has a lot of white balls.) Unless the person drawing the ball can see the colors of the balls, so after fetching a white ball, he tries to fetch the white ones for the next 19 balls, too. And it is not just the 12 matrices for the day. For the next 50 days you come, you see the similar matrices. Then you go to another casino, and you see white balls are pretty uniformly distributed in 20 rows in each matrix. Like there are always 3 to 6 rows without a white ball and the majority of the rows have very few white balls each. Sometimes you may see a row with more than 10 white balls! But that is like once in a day, not all the times in the first casino!

[KJ]

Interesting... I'm not very good with the legal aspects of blackjack or casino games in general. But you bring something to my attention... While I was flooring I had to make decisions all the time that could effect the outcomes of games. And I really took a lot of pride in; A. keeping the players happy and B. not effecting the outcome.

A good example which happened almost every night was when dealers would make errors with the order of cards... Here's the scenario...

3 players at a table... 1st Player is dealt a total of eleven... 2nd total of 7... 3rd a 20... Dealer has a 6 showing.

Dealer skips 1st player completely and gives a ten to the 2nd player.

Every casino I have worked at management is not allowed to back up cards. Since it is a "miss-deal" I personally would allow everyone to continue the hand if they so choose or they can back their bets out if they choose also. So what generally happens is the ten stays and the 1st player receives the next card... which almost always seems to not be a ten! Then the hand is completed as if nothing happened (by most floor) Then we burn the deck or shoe. (remind you I have seen this mishandled oh so many times by bad floors) A lot of the times this happens the 1st Player will lose. The dealer makes a hand and scoops the money. Bad floors will just take the money and say, "we allowed you an opportunity to back out and you decided to continue the hand. Your bad."... Wrong!!!... Our bad... Some "nice" floors will give the 1st Player a push sometimes.

You are talking about dealer mistakes and that's a little different, RobinHood21. Mistakes happen. And there are procedures in place to handle them. Either procedures set by the casino or in some cases procedures set by a gaming oversight commission. You would know about these procedures more than I. The option to back out of the hand seems to be a common resolution.

But a decision to shuffle up in the middle of play is not quite the same. There is no mistake involved. It is just a conscious decision to change the odds and outcome of the game and that is supposed to be illegal in most places that I know of. This is far different than cutting the deck in half (lowering penetration) PRIOR to any cards being dealt. That is completely legal. But shuffling up in the middle clearly violates the law in my opinion.