ASM machines Question

[miadebaba]

{2,3,4} are in a group. {7,8,9} are in a group. Ace, 5, 6 are alone in their own group. Each group has its primary card(s) mixed with different density of face cards to make Basic Strategy not working. ASM uses gravity to sort out these groups. Basically they push through a desired card from left chamber to right chamber after reading the card's edge. Because the unbalanced face cards and small cards in the five groups, there is a thin layer of tens left on the very top of the shoe on the right chamber. So if you cut at 40% of the shoe from the top, you will finish the shoe with very positive TC.

This assumes the pit boss turns on ASM clumping for the day. In my observation, they turn on clumping on both red and blue decks in holiday to increase profit margins. On weekdays, you will have one regular shoe and one clumping shoe alternated. Just play two or three shoes to see if there is the following pattern. You want to see if 7, 8, 9 are coming together, if ace are clumping together (like six aces in a span of 13 cards), if 6 are clumping together, if 2, 3, 4 are always close to each other.

This makes a lot of sense. I ll definitely spend more time on this before I play next time! Thank you so much!

[miadebaba]

So an ASM knows exactly how many players are going to play exactly how many hands and also knows exactly how each player is going to play the hand and rearranges the cards to give the casinos more of an advantage? All this so that the casinos always win and the players never win?

I am not saying by doing this casino will always win and players will always lose. I am saying that by they can arrange the cards in a certain pattern that is more favorable to the house. Just to give you example, we have all been through good shoes and bad shoes. Progammers can study the pattern of those bad shoes (regardless of how many players, how they play each hand) and determine the most favorable card combination to the house. Yes, the shuffle machines are capable of producing "bad shoes" consistently.

[miadebaba]

So an ASM knows exactly how many players are going to play exactly how many hands and also knows exactly how each player is going to play the hand and rearranges the cards to give the casinos more of an advantage? All this so that the casinos always win and the players never win?

Again, there's no need for ASM to know exactly how many players, play exactly how many hands or how each player plays each hand. THere's math/probability/stats behind it. A modern computer is certainly capable of calculating the maths and select the optimal card combination that is more favorable to the house. It is just like how best strategy tells us when to double down, split, stand and hit. Everything there's math behind it.

[dunknballer21]

And you have statistical evidence to show how these ASMs are constantly producing bad shoes? Or are these just anecdotal, "Man, I lost a lot of money lately. Must be the ASMs."

[dunknballer21]

And the site you keep linking to seems like a bunch of bs to me. Among many other things the guy on the website says...

Edward Thorpe invented basic strategy in 1962...

card counting doesn't work...

you can beat blackjack without counting cards...but, oh wait, you can't beat them; you can just decrease the edge the house has...

websites such as wizard of odds, blackjack forums, and the like are run by the casinos...

never take insurance...

And he gives you his "King's Strategy Chart" for blackjack that takes away most double downs for some reason (guess the guy doesn't realize that one of the advantages a player has over the house is doubling down on a potentially good hand). And he also gives you handy dandy guides for roulette and keno (you know, the really good games for people looking to beat the casinos).

So yeah, go ahead and listen the guy. He's obviously right about blackjack and ASMs.

[Dieter]

Yes, the shuffle machines are capable of producing "bad shoes" consistently.

Do you have any insight into the method?

I mean, if I were to stack a deck, I'd either need to know the order of the discards (not practical, since I didn't see where the cut was or how many people were playing), or I'd need to identify each card before I put it in the new location.

I was under the impression that the scanner was in the path between the input (discard) and output (shuffled) deck trays, and that the card path wasn't long enough to allow the card to stop while the output elevator moved.

[bjarg]

I wonder how much more will it take for this ridiculous threads to be moved to the disadvantage forum.

[BJGenius007]

And you have statistical evidence to show how these ASMs are constantly producing bad shoes? Or are these just anecdotal, "Man, I lost a lot of money lately. Must be the ASMs."

This is from #4 post in this thread and I add some comments:

Group 1: {2,3,4} x 6/13, face cards x 5/13, other cards x 2/13 (face card rich clump)

The goal is to double the intensity of {2,3,4} in this clump so it will increase the chance of getting pairs of 2, 3 or 4 but if you double after split, you like to get a small card. On the other hand, the dealer likes make a hand because of small card rich.

Group 2: {7,8,9} x 6/13, face cards x 3/13, other cards x 4/13 (face card poor clump)

The goal for ASM is to have player three card bust before dealer three card bust unless your three cards is 7/7/7.

Group 3: {A} x 1/3, face cards x 2/13, other cards x 1/2 (face card poor ace rich clump)

The goal for ASM is to reduce player Blackjack possibility. Also after splitting aces, increase the chance to get another ace because of face card poor and ace rich.

Group 4: {5} x 1/3, face cards x 1/3 or 1/6, other cards x 1/3 or 1/2

The goal for ASM is to have players get another five after doubling a pair of five.

Group 5: {6} x 1/3, face cards x 1/2, other cards x 1/6 (face card rich)

The goal for ASM is to have players get two face cards after splitting a pair of six and get two hands of 16.

[dunknballer21]

So do you have any statistical evidence to show that these ASMs are constantly producing bad shoes? Or are you just going to continue to avoid using any sort of logic?

[KJ]

I wonder how much more will it take for this ridiculous threads to be moved to the disadvantage forum.

Totally agree, bjarg. I actually responded to this thread last night with a lengthy post, but then deleted, figuring 'why bother'. Conspirators will be conspirators. They think everyone is out to get them.

The fact isn't whether an ASM can be programed to sort the cards, I am sure it could be. The issue is that doing so would be illegal in every jurisdiction that I know of. And the price would be high. Not only the fine involved, but a cheating accusation costing the publics confidence in a fair game, would be a fatal or near fatal blow for most casinos.

What about machines? They are all computers now. Does anyone think a video poker machine couldn't be programed to not hit a Royal flush? Of course it could. It would be illegal, but easily done. The casino industry just doesn't need to do these things and take this risk. They have sizable built in advantages and they legally tweak or change rules for even larger advantageous. No company is going to risk fine, license and reputation doing this.

The only possibility is a rouge employee or two at some small casino or possibly some casino where over sight and regulation is lax. (Indian Casinos) But any talk of Harrah's doing this as the OP suggested is goofy. It's just a case of some player losing and then jumping to conclusions based on a very small sample size. Then the 'conspirators' run with it.

[MJGolf]

Just FYI guys.........because I remember reading on this board about Navasino as to some of the casinos in Louisiana, Miss, etc. Here is link to thread where Norm asked him to not link to his site because strategy suggested incorrect. His site was down for awhile; the links didn't work. I see that from this thread on ASM's, it's back up. Just asking anyone here to do a site search on this board first for some more info.

http://blackjacktheforum.com/showthr...light=navasino

[BJGenius007]

Totally agree, bjarg. I actually responded to this thread last night with a lengthy post, but then deleted, figuring 'why bother'. Conspirators will be conspirators. They think everyone is out to get them.

The fact isn't whether an ASM can be programed to sort the cards, I am sure it could be. The issue is that doing so would be illegal in every jurisdiction that I know of.

The shuffling is still random so it is not a cheat for casino if they need to defend themselves. If the pass parameter is set to zero, then the ASM acts like hand shuffle. But say the pit boss sets the parameter to 3, then a desired card is always push through from the left chamber to the right chamber. An undesired card (card not belong to the group) is pushed back in the first three tries but is pushed through on the fourth scan nonetheless. The end product is a shoe that is very unfriendly to Basic Strategy players if the pass parameter is set very high due to grouping or clumping.

[bjarg]

I actually responded to this thread last night with a lengthy post, but then deleted, figuring 'why bother'.

Im right there with you.
Already got involved once in this discussion and have no intentions of doing it again.