Viability of Spanish 21...

[Pokerplayer]

Hello Everyone,

I noticed a few sp21 tables at my most recent visit to the local casino. I didn't get a good look at the rules, but are beatable sp21 games still out there? Most of the information I've seen online say that there is little heat on this game but the info is from several years ago. I'm thinking about putting some effort into this game, but are the favorable rules from 2008 still out there or have those gone away?

Thanks!

[mrw464]

beatable I believe, jabber is the expert on that

[Three]

First step forget everything you learned about BJ. It is a totally different game. Effort into gathering and using extra information is the key to the game. Simple approaches will get you crushed.

[Pokerplayer]

First step forget everything you learned about BJ. It is a totally different game. Effort into gathering and using extra information is the key to the game. Simple approaches will get you crushed.

Yeah I understand that there is a basic strategy that is a lot different than BJ. I guess I'm more interested if the very low heat level and favorable rules are still prevalent where sp21 is available.

[Three]

Yeah I understand that there is a basic strategy that is a lot different than BJ. I guess I'm more interested if the very low heat level and favorable rules are still prevalent where sp21 is available.

Nobody plays by basic strategy so there really aren't odd plays. The betting EOR's are whacky so a simple approach which is probably the best a casino employee would know is not going to correspond to the more complicated betting approaches. If you use a simple approach expect heat. You will fit just what they are looking for. The more accurate your complicated approach is the harder it is for them to detect you. Even the sweatiest shops aren't going to detect an approach that is both really high BC and really high PE. Simple approaches must compromise between the 2 but as you get more complicated you can have both and the simple approach guy thinks you are a ploppy moron.

[biggg]

There are some places to play where the Spanish 21 games are great but reg bj is terrible. However in general the game is worse. It's very crowded almost everywhere it is offered and the edge is lower than decent rules BJ games, especially since a lot of stores have a 1 spot only rule and the crowds are such that you can't backcount. I am speaking of the S17 games in the NE.

There are still some casinos that sweat bj hard but don't care about Spanish at all, others definitely will back you off at this.

The count from the popular book on this game wins a lot less than more advanced systems. It is not like regular shoe BJ where higher level counts are probably not worth the time, a strong count can win as much as 30% more in this..

[Nikky_Flash]

There are some places to play where the Spanish 21 games are great but reg bj is terrible. However in general the game is worse. It's very crowded almost everywhere it is offered and the edge is lower than decent rules BJ games, especially since a lot of stores have a 1 spot only rule and the crowds are such that you can't backcount. I am speaking of the S17 games in the NE.

There are still some casinos that sweat bj hard but don't care about Spanish at all, others definitely will back you off at this.

The count from the popular book on this game wins a lot less than more advanced systems. It is not like regular shoe BJ where higher level counts are probably not worth the time, a strong count can win as much as 30% more in this..

Thanks biggg , did not know this , (rated as helpful) what are the best tags for the cards to use? I know having tens gone will basically unbalance everything , not that in itself is a deal-breaker , but , for someone looking into to it for a long-term-future thing ... any pointers to start ... (I've have and read "the very popular" Spanish 21-book, not sure if I'd use Hi-Lo for SP21, myself)

[Three]

Biggs is right about the crowds. You have to know when and where to play and how to clear a table. The conditions are going to make hit and run the Norm. You might get 2 or 3 hours of uncrowded conditions and have a long span where there will be an hour or so here or there heads up. You just have to bide your time waiting for those periods where the plops leave. If you aren't patient the game will eat you up. The swings are huge due to the larger spreads and the strategy involved in playing properly is much harder than BJ. If you cling to BJ ideas you will never play the game right. You will have to make decisions based on the number of cards in your hand, you will be hitting what seems to the guy clinging to blackjack that you are hitting everything. You want an ace neutral count multilevel count. The A is an Uber card for betting. The T is a minor card for betting but very important for playing. Most counts leave a lot on the table.

[Nikky_Flash]

Biggs is right about the crowds. You have to know when and where to play and how to clear a table. The conditions are going to make hit and run the Norm. You might get 2 or 3 hours of uncrowded conditions and have a long span where there will be an hour or so here or there heads up. You just have to bide your time waiting for those periods where the plops leave. If you aren't patient the game will eat you up. The swings are huge due to the larger spreads and the strategy involved in playing properly is much harder than BJ. If you cling to BJ ideas you will never play the game right. You will have to make decisions based on the number of cards in your hand, you will be hitting what seems to the guy clinging to blackjack that you are hitting everything. You want an ace neutral count multilevel count. The A is an Uber card for betting. The T is a minor card for betting but very important for playing. Most counts leave a lot on the table.

Thanks Tthree, I remember a post some time back you mentioned we could count ace as -2 , with faces -1 ; 0's for 7,8,9, ; and plus for the rest, with reasonable results.. Is there a "Hot deck time" : a good running count/position in deck-correlation/ in say 6-deck with those tags ? where we can add the "sweet-16" or a few index plays , I remember in the "popular-SP21 book" she mentions that index plays aren't exactly incorporated the same; I would have to break it out a bit to see what she uses for index, (I've been trying to hone my skills in regular play, so haven't looked at it in a while) if I recall it was drastically different , understandably, from what I'm used to seeing for standard-index plays... I only recall seeing a small few that I could jump right into , maybe like 5 or 6 plays... any info is appreciated...

[Three]

What you are describing is a balanced count. You must true count it.

[Pokerplayer]

There are some places to play where the Spanish 21 games are great but reg bj is terrible. However in general the game is worse. It's very crowded almost everywhere it is offered and the edge is lower than decent rules BJ games, especially since a lot of stores have a 1 spot only rule and the crowds are such that you can't backcount. I am speaking of the S17 games in the NE.

There are still some casinos that sweat bj hard but don't care about Spanish at all, others definitely will back you off at this.

The count from the popular book on this game wins a lot less than more advanced systems. It is not like regular shoe BJ where higher level counts are probably not worth the time, a strong count can win as much as 30% more in this..

Thank you for the helpful post. I've looked over the popular book and it's mainly hi lo with index plays. If you were to use a higher level count then the index plays would change as well, right? Any resource for someone who has worked this out?

[Norm]

Modern Blackjack has level II Spanish 21 indices (FELT). Also Spanish 21 hole-carding and partial hole-carding tables.

[biggg]

What I would do starting out is scout out the pen and conditions where you play. When I first decided to learn this I saw a casino with empty tables offering great pen. I didn't realize that in most other casinos the tables are crowded and they cut off the same number of cards as they do in bj. Anyway if you see good conditions then you can learn to play, otherwise it's really not worth the work.

The other thing I would note is that in a lot of stores the dealers don't know the rules of the game. It's definitely worth trying to surrender before the dealer checks for BJ, for example.