Glitzensplizzle on my glockenspiel

[biggg]

I think people are underestimating how much WR this really adds. The times this count is going to add value is at the end of the shoe when you would have big money out anyway regardless of your system. It might only add .2% on average but in that last deck when you've got your max bet out and the card distribution is heavily skewed you are going to be picking up several times that. And it's the edge in these cases that really drives SCORE. That's why SCOREs are so much lower in Spanish 21...which by the way if you could run this count in that game you may be looking at a massive edge.

[Rudy]

I think people are underestimating how much WR this really adds. The times this count is going to add value is at the end of the shoe when you would have big money out anyway regardless of your system. It might only add .2% on average but in that last deck when you've got your max bet out and the card distribution is heavily skewed you are going to be picking up several times that. And it's the edge in these cases that really drives SCORE. That's why SCOREs are so much lower in Spanish 21...which by the way if you could run this count in that game you may be looking at a massive edge.

In several stores he's allowed to play only 1/2 shoes... explain that...

[ZenKinG]

I feel bad for you guys.

[Rudy]

Happens... I feel bad when I hear Halves, trust me I know how it feels.

[ZenKinG]

lol

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Commentary re: biggg's post [#144]

There are NO scores for Spanish21.

Did someone try to convince you otherwise ?

However, I can say, that your statement about using the Tarzan Count with

Span21 is both false and true. As the count is composed of balanced groups

the "Spanish Deck" of 48 cards does not lend itself to this methodology.

The Tarzan Count is geared to ordinary blackjack.

However, IF completely re-tooled for Span21, I feel that his

advantage at Span21 would be astonishing, as there are no TENS.

Unfortunately having 11 ranks PLUS Aces makes balancing the groups

implausible. Such a re-tooling could take years, presuming that it's possible.

[KJ]

I think KJ, playing in Vegas, using his unique M.O., is on the verge of matching Tarzans numbers, while using a normal Hi-Lo count.

Except, I am sure Tarzan has accomplished his results playing only a fraction of my total play, Mr O.

I am not fond of comparing any two players results. I am not competing with anyone other than myself. Player's have different abilities and circumstances, for which they should personalize their plan of attack. Although I haven't met Tarzan, it is more than obvious to me that he has extremely rare abilities and to not utilize those special talents would be a waste. The fact that he plays a small rotation of local stores also comes into play as the ability to win using a smaller spread, should add some longevity.

Someone like myself, takes a different route. I tailor my attack to my limited abilities and to my specific circumstances of having a larger number of games available to play.

I suspect most player's abilities fall somewhere between Tarzan's high end and my low end of the scale, and they should play to their own abilities, and this includes what count they want to play. My only concern, which I have voiced many times is that, in this day and age of poorer games, the advantage of doing so is minimal and overrated, in all but the most extreme cases, and Tarzan, would be just such an extreme case.

[Goatlife]

Except, I am sure Tarzan has accomplished his results playing only a fraction of my total play, Mr O.

I am not fond of comparing any two players results. I am not competing with anyone other than myself. Player's have different abilities and circumstances, for which they should personalize their plan of attack. Although I haven't met Tarzan, it is more than obvious to me that he has extremely rare abilities and to not utilize those special talents would be a waste. The fact that he plays a small rotation of local stores also comes into play as the ability to win using a smaller spread, should add some longevity.

Someone like myself, takes a different route. I tailor my attack to my limited abilities and to my specific circumstances of having a larger number of games available to play.

I suspect most player's abilities fall somewhere between Tarzan's high end and my low end of the scale, and they should play to their own abilities, and this includes what count they want to play. My only concern, which I have voiced many times is that, in this day and age of poorer games, the advantage of doing so is minimal and overrated, in all but the most extreme cases, and Tarzan, would be just such an extreme case.

id say you do really well for yourself. You found what works for you and you keep going. I learned in life when you find something that works don't take your foot off the gas petal and keep going. I need to tell myself that at times because there are many way's to beat a casino, it doesn't mean i have to know or learn them all to make money. I do what i enjoy and leave what i don't alone. To each their own.

[KJ]

I do what i enjoy and leave what I don't alone. To each their own.

I like your thinking here smallcapgrowth. The enjoyment factor plays a big part in my own limitations. Three or four years ago, after I moved to Vegas, I really got into hole carding for a few months. Keeping a journal of weak dealers and what shifts they worked. I was practically stalking one dude up at circus circus. But I never felt comfortable with that. It just felt 'dirty' to me. It's not the way I wanted to win and I was certainly not enjoying it, so I stopped. Now when I say 'dirty' that's a personal thing. I am not implying hole carding is illegal or wrong, nor a judgement on those that engage in this technique. It is the casinos responsibility to protect their game. This method just wasn't for me.

Last year, I incorporated a second game into my casino play. The big six wheel or big money wheel as it is sometimes called and incorporating the dealer spin bias, to play with an advantage. I player heavy for six months with strong results, less the second half of year. This game had a number of issues for me. It is extremely boring to play, has limited operating hours, and any wagers over $5 were very rare and drew attention. Yes there are back offs on this game. Also this game is one of the first casinos games that I believe will soon be completely replaced by electronic versions (aruze), and that transformation is well underway. But mostly again, I didn't care for winning this way. I prefer to win by using my own abilities rather than exploiting some dealer weakness. Card counting provides me that opportunity and as I end my tenth year, I still enjoy winning this way. At least most days.....some days are not quite so enjoyable.

This may sound silly, but there is something kind of romantic about still being able to win by this most elementary method, and in my case, the most elementary of elementary methods (simple count), even after all the industry has done to make it more difficult.

[DBJT]

Surely it can't be 100%...

Perhaps it could be 100%... but don't call me Shirley.

-DBJT

P.S. Sorry, couldn't resist

[DBJT]

...after I moved to Vegas, I really got into hole carding for a few months. Keeping a journal of weak dealers and what shifts they worked. I was practically stalking one dude up at circus circus. But I never felt comfortable with that...

Interesting, your experience with hole carding, KJ. Thanks for sharing.

I recently had a similar situation with a fellow AP, former team-mate actually... to the point of a kind of falling out, sadly, over just exactly such a similar *personal choice* it seems.

They couldn't understand my lack of motivation or interest in pursuing a more aggressive attack approach against such higher-EV (and lower bankroll) opportunities, HC work and carnival games, etc... even though we were making good money doing it together, in the limited time that I did TRY and do SOME of it with him.

And in turn, I couldn't accept their near total distaste and disregard for "simple" or "old fashioned" straight card-counting work... especially as he was one of the most capable straight counters I've ever met!

The dividing line in the end seemed to be suitability of one philosophy over the other, in a more complex team-play type attack approach.

For that, straight counting comes thru with flying colors: a solo player -or- a team can ALWAYS find a shoe to count down, any time of the day or night, 24 hours, 7 days, 365 a year...

-DBJT

P.S. Personally, HC doesn't feel "dirty" to ME, as you said. MY attitude is still take 'em for anything you can, any way you can, as long as the courts have deemed it not illegal. I'd still do it in an instant, but I just won't go out of my way to try and track it down. If you're sittin' there counting down a shoe as usual at 3rd base, and a new dealer taps in, who just happens to be a sloppy flasher, by all means PUT THE CHIPS OUT THERE, MAN!!! LOL

[Jabberwocky]

Interesting, your experience with hole carding, KJ. Thanks for sharing.

I recently had a similar situation with a fellow AP, former team-mate actually... to the point of a kind of falling out, sadly, over just exactly such a similar *personal choice* it seems.

They couldn't understand my lack of motivation or interest in pursuing a more aggressive attack approach against such higher-EV (and lower bankroll) opportunities, HC work and carnival games, etc... even though we were making good money doing it together, in the limited time that I did TRY and do SOME of it with him.

And in turn, I couldn't accept their near total distaste and disregard for "simple" or "old fashioned" straight card-counting work... especially as he was one of the most capable straight counters I've ever met!

The dividing line in the end seemed to be suitability of one philosophy over the other, in a more complex team-play type attack approach.

For that, straight counting comes thru with flying colors: a solo player -or- a team can ALWAYS find a shoe to count down, any time of the day or night, 24 hours, 7 days, 365 a year...

-DBJT

P.S. Personally, HC doesn't feel "dirty" to ME, as you said. MY attitude is still take 'em for anything you can, any way you can, as long as the courts have deemed it not illegal. I'd still do it in an instant, but I just won't go out of my way to try and track it down. If you're sittin' there counting down a shoe as usual at 3rd base, and a new dealer taps in, who just happens to be a sloppy flasher, by all means PUT THE CHIPS OUT THERE, MAN!!! LOL

"I'm obsessed with winning." - Norman Leigh

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Erratum:

It has come to my attention that I had misstated

something re: Surplus/Deficit Middle Cards.

Here is the correction:

The {6-9} deficit helps with 9 v. 2, whereas a surplus hurts you.

In TarzanSpeak we would note:

"6-0-6" = HIT . . . "0-6-0" = DOUBLE

"6-0-6" means that there is a steep SURPLUS of Middle Cards.

"0-6-0" means that there is a sparkling DEFICIT of Middle Cards.