onetoomany: Why don't the casinos just eliminate

[Parker]

> All the talk about slot machines has
> reminded me of an article I read a about a
> year ago. A man in New Jersey was attempting
> to study slot machine payouts at Atlantic
> City, and after testing numerous machines on
> several days he concluded that the cheap
> slots would allow the player to win more
> than normal the first few "pulls".
> As the number of credits per pull increased,
> winning became more requent. He also said
> that by winning a few times in a row, then
> cashing out, then repeating the process he
> was able to make a small profit over time.

> Has anybody heard this story or anything
> similar? If so, is this legal?

Sure it's legal. It just doesn't work. There are many myths and superstitions surrounding slot machines, and this is merely more of the same.

It is impossible to gain any meaningful data on slots from observing them for a few days, just as it is impossible to draw any conclusions from blackjack play based on a few hours at the tables. The sample is too small and variance is too high.

All modern slot machines are controlled by a random number generator that generates thousands of random numbers every second that the machine is powered up.

When you pull the lever (or hit the button - it makes no difference at all) whatever number pops out at that exact instant determines what, if anything, you win. It is completely random - the odds are exactly the same regardless of what the machine has done on the last few spins.

The payout percentages are set at the factory when the machine is manufactured and cannot be easily changed by the casino.

> Also, some casinos list slot pay-out odds as
> 2:1 for a 1 unit gain and 1:1 for a push.
> These valuse are in fact incorrect (1:1
> would be a one unit gain, not a push). Does
> the slot consider the coin they
> "return" to the player that was
> used to make their origional bet to be
> "payout?" Is the returning of
> money in this way factored into the
> percentage payout that casinos display?

Yes. It is just terminology. When a bet is said to pay "2 to 1" (commonly written as 2:1), it is implicit that you keep your original bet. When a slot says it pays "2 for 1" it means that your original bet is forfeited, regardless of the outcome.

Casinos love slots because they cannot be beaten, do not call in sick, and do not ask for raises or overtime pay.

[AdvantageRay]

..illegal, but, (In another life) I worked for one casino that did switch the chips that controlled the long run expectation of the game. Now, these chips had to be tested and approved by the gaming commission, and it couldnt drastically alter the win %, no more then by a point at most, but it has been done. Also, the chips could not be changed at a moments notice, and of course the slot machines could not be controlled to a short term win %, this is all long term win % over a large number of numbers generated. Whether or not thats legal, I dont know, but it does happen...
D

[cherry]

> All modern slot machines are controlled by a
> random number generator that generates
> thousands of random numbers every second
> that the machine is powered up.

except for the new Class II machines:
http://tinyurl.com/34fa3

[Parker]

> except for the new Class II machines:
> http://tinyurl.com/34fa3

Nothing new about these. California Indian casinos were full of them prior to Prop 1A passing in 2000, which legalized "real" slot machines.

The CA Tribes argued that a class II slot machine was not really a slot machine at all. I tend to agree. Of course, Prop 1A made the whole matter moot, at least in California.

All the Class II devices in CA casinos have been replaced with real slots identical to those found in Las Vegas, etc.

[cherry]

nothing new?
from the cited article:

"IGT, which is already showing Class II machines at trade shows, expects to transform about 40 of its slot machines into Class II versions by mid-2004, UBS Warburg gaming analyst Robin Farley wrote in a research note. The company anticipates testing these games in Oklahoma and California by mid-April, she said. Potential markets also include Washington, Florida and Alabama, she said.

The National Indian Gaming Commission, the federal agency that regulates tribal casinos, is developing a national technical standard for Class II games that is expected sometime this year. The commission was forging ahead on a standard without waiting for any court decision on the matter.

Other states that offer both kinds of machines are expected to see an increase in Class II devices in tribal casinos, they say.

"In certain states like California, where the number of Class III devices are limited (by state compacts), we would anticipate casino expansion with Class II devices," Merrill Lynch casino analyst David Anders wrote in a research note.
"

> Nothing new about these. California Indian
> casinos were full of them prior to Prop 1A
> passing in 2000, which legalized
> "real" slot machines.

> The CA Tribes argued that a class II slot
> machine was not really a slot machine at
> all. I tend to agree. Of course, Prop 1A
> made the whole matter moot, at least in
> California.

> All the Class II devices in CA casinos have
> been replaced with real slots identical to
> those found in Las Vegas, etc.

[Parker]

They would be new to IGT and other established slot machine makers, but they are not new.

Nevada gaming law precludes companies doing business in Nevada from doing anything of questionable legality in other states. In other words, during the period when the legal status of the CA casinos was uncertain (pre-prop 1A), any company selling machines to a CA casino risked losing the ability to do business in Nevada - not a risk that IGT, Bally, or any of the established slot companies were willing to take.

It's also silly to suggest that there will be a market for these things in CA, since the 2000 slot/casino limit is about to go out the window.

[cherry]

> They would be new to IGT and other
> established slot machine makers, but they
> are not new.

An IGT Double Diamond Class II machine is new, and other models are to follow. A Class II MG/MD video poker model wouldn't surprise me either.

Of course the casinos will install Class II machines, as long as most people don't know what's going on, they are better for the casinos since they take the guess work out of it.

[SOTSOG]

This method only works on Tuesdays and alternate Wednesdays. Most slots play occurs on weekends, so it doesn't apply.

[Ouchez]

> I don't know how you define "drop"
> or what that means.

> For slot addicts, the house edge is 100%.
> Anything they win is just put back into the
> machine. Winning just means they spin the
> reels a little longer, using a few cents
> more in electricity, until they give it all
> back.

> A table player will actually walk away from
> the table and carry a big win around for a
> while, until giving the house another crack
> at his money.

> If a slot player continues to be lucky
> before losing a large jackpot back, they
> then move up to higher and higher
> denomination slots, in order to give the
> house a better chance to get back their
> money.

> Only death can stop a slot player from
> losing it all back eventually. Never seen
> one quit ahead of the game.

it off to give to my lovah who has a real weakness for slots, she plays it just as you posted. I am trying to wean her off slots and have her play strictly BJ....I mean Black Jack...of course. She wins real big and then will lose it all back.

I, on the other hand, never play the slots, never.

Again, great post SOTSOG.

Regards,
Ouchez.

[cherry]

just three words:
piggy banking slots

[Tony]

They appeared to be trying to make their casino a "Slot Heaven" in Tunica with hopes of stealing other players. They not only eliminated blackjack tables but ALL table games and replaced the floor space with colorful machines and all sorts of cartoons and monsters.

What was thought to be a goldmine by casino management turned out to be a nightmare.

After about 6 months, business had taken a steep nosedive and management was fired. The damage done was beyond repair and Isle of Capri was not able to hold their casino together. Needless to say they had to shut down and put their property up for sale. Sams Town had an interest and bought the hotel,but left the casino standing in the dark.

A lesson to be learned is never underestimate the power of green felt. Most competent casinos know this and that's why table games will always exist. It's only common sense. I assume you're not a card counter,so this good news may not enlighten you very much.

Oddly as it may seem, the reason some casinos cut back on tables is to intimidate ploppies into packing all tables(more money per square ft!?) and bet higher minimums. The extra floor space is only a nice result they fill up with some extra slots. Tables will never go away,they will only become more and more "packed" at the casinos using such a tactic. Unfortunately this is an end result that may cause casinos to lose money due to ploppies leaving and going other casinos where they can (at least) comfortably lose money. Ever played blackjack at a packed table with three fat ladies? It's not a comfortable situation, is it?

Tony

[SOTSOG]

Isle of Capri had to learn the hard way.

Besides there full table policies, Harrahs seems to be a major force behind trying to turn some of its boats into huge floating slot barges.

[ZOD]