What topic should we cover at the next meet-up?
Machine Play
Shuffle Tracking
Blackjack Variants
Comps/Rebates/Coupons
Running a Team: Operations, Taxes, etc.
Sequencing/Next Card
Since I do not have the luxury of 10-15 casinos or a ton of table games in my area I would like to learn more about VP opposed to holecarding. I would also like to learn more about comp redemption and utilization, managing multiple cards, and team play as a hole.
There is no glory in practice, but without practice there is no glory . -Unknown
Personally, I am much in agreement with ZeeBabar !!
I am absolutely opposed to VP being discussed, unless it's a "side issue" during off-hours. VP in MOST areas has negative expectation, and I really don't want to sit for hours at a VP machine to try to get casino comps. Believe me, I have checked out the VP games in my area, and in general they offer around a 98% payback, depending on the specific casino and the specific VP games. I suspect this is the same in most areas of the country. Even books on VP talk about being "close to 100%" and then going over the top with comps. My opinion, but no thank you.
As for holecarding..... at least in my area ALL games are dealt from a shoe [gaming regulations], and the dealers seem to be extremely well-trained, in all casinos, of dragging that hold card along the felt. Believe me, I've watched. YES, hold carding can be valuable....but only when you get a sloppy dealer. Look, I'm not opposed to taking advantage of a sloppy dealer. But, I think camp time would be better spent in learning how to beat ALL dealers.... or at least studying the factors that go into making a game "beatable."
I would suggest some of the following as topics for discussion:
SCORE: It's use, what it tells us, what it does NOT tell us. Why use SCORE rather than $/hr as a criteria.
KELLY: A really good discussion on Kelly, and how to use it as a basis for money management. Once again....what Kelly does and what it does NOT do.
N0 (N-zero): What it is, how to use it. [When people talk about the "long run" I would suggest they are often talking about N0, although they may not know it.)
A discussion of the "common myths" of blackjack. Personally, I think an advantage player is fine to spout some of the common myths of blackjack, but s/he should do so in order to look like the average ploppie. In short, you might want to spout the myths, but please know that they are myths. EXAMPLE: Assume the dealer hole card is a 10. There are a bunch.
How to recognize 'heat' and how to react.
If you feel you MUST use camouflage betting, what are the least costly camouflage bets?
Okay, that my list for a start.
Yes, almost all of man's knowledge can be found in a books. However, we have classes and professors because most people gain from the interaction and perspective offered by others. Reading is valuable...and I do a ton of it. But it lacks active interaction. Based upon the statement that you can "get them from a book," it could be argued that there is zero need for a camp. A camp would offer new perspectives, new interactions, and the opportunity to ask questions.
Some learn easily from books. Others learn easily from a class. Others need a mentor to give one on one training to get the entire message. the trouble with books is everything you want to know is not in them. Most are pretty basic. The good ones try to tell you what you need to know. I guess the point is everyone learns differently everyone has different needs. Some of the most valuable things you may get is a network. Relationships with fellow APs that can help you in a lot of ways.
Ideally you get access to more than books and make the most of all the opportunities to learn.
Terry I respect your opinion, but I view the boot camp as an opportunity to learn information not available elsewhere. It would be a shame to have the experience of an accomplished AP player like Moo who knows a ton that isn't in "the books" and talk about score, N0, and Kelly. You can read and discuss those things to no end on this forum but there are certain things(like holecarding) that people aren't as comfortable discussing in an open forum.Originally Posted by terry0222
Even if the opportunities are less available I would still rather gain new and rarer information than repeat something that has already been discussed to death.
My 2 cents.
Fair enough. We just disagree. I just happen to see no value in discussing something, e.g., hole carding, that is impossible to exploit when dealers are properly trained. In my area there are ZERO pitch games, since state gaming laws do not allow it. You will for a long time for a dealer who exposes their hole card. That card comes out of the shoe and is drug across the felt.
On the flip side, EVERYBODY should be using correct risk management techniques. And yet I see postings every day from individuals who obviously do not. The point is, people spend hours and hours trying to figure out things like the "best" betting system. In reality, it doesn't make any difference, as long as you have a method that gets the money in when the count is good. But they players give it all back because they don't appreciate how truly thin the odds are, and the fact that they can be "correct" in the long run but broke in the short run. Concepts like Kelly, SCORE, and N0 teach those things. And I think the live interaction helps develop the nuances of these issues.
Ultimately, I hope Moo offers a outline of the subjects to be discussed. Then each individual can make an informed decision as to whether or not they will attend. Although I feel I am familiar with topics such as SCORE, N0, and Kelly, I would attend a camp that features these as topics in an effort to develop a more nuanced understanding. On the flip side, I would be hard pressed to justify a trip discussing hole carding.
Just for the record, Bill Zender has a very nice discussion of hole carding in his book "Advantage Play for the Casino Executive," along with discussions of shuffle tracking, warp hole-card strategy, and dealer tells.
As I noted, we apparently disagree. That happens. But I prefer a camp that discusses issues that I can use in my blackjack game every time I play, no matter where I play. Hole carding, shuffle tracking, and card warps do no offer that.
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