See the top rated post in this thread. Click here

Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast
Results 53 to 65 of 79

Thread: "Preserving The Win"

  1. #53


    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Wave View Post
    I started this thread with a trip roll example because it seems to me that often when a new player asks what size their trip roll should be, I see answers like "30 max bets" with no inquiry to what game will be played, what bet spread will be used, how many hands will be played (length of trip), will a win goal be employed, will you play all hands or "Wong", etc. which do seem to me like relevant factors (otherwise why did Norm include them in his software?) that are not being taken into consideration. Also because people used to give Z crap about preserving his wins which created the false impression that using a trip goal would cause disaster without providing any sim data to support their opinions.
    When someone seeks advice for a trip (not session) roll, they may play many different games on the trip. For instance, when on a trip, I play some $10-$15 minimum 6 deck games with 1-10 spread, $25 minimum DD games that are play all ones with a 1-5 spread. So, the answer has to be general. When I ask that question, I don’t need sims, I trust the experience of certain pros and take their advice. Following their advice has helped me.

    For the above games, on a trip where I would play actual 25 table hours, I usually take $6-8k. Though, for practical purposes, I would quit if I lost $5k, head home. If I am winning, and up $2.5k, I go into “preserving the win” mode, put away $1k (ensuring I have had a successful trip) and play with the rest of the winnings till I start for home. This means, my win total would be more than $1k for sure, may be more if variance is with me with the $1.5k BR I play with for the remaining hours of my trip.

  2. #54


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    So, the answer has to be general. When I ask that question, I don’t need sims, I trust the experience of certain pros and take their advice. Following their advice has helped me.
    Where do you think the pros get their answers? Sims! Nobody (even Don) can intuit the ROR of a game given its parameters. or can you, Don?

  3. #55


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Where do you think the pros get their answers? Sims! Nobody (even Don) can intuit the ROR of a game given its parameters. or can you, Don?
    I am simply seeking a recommendation for a trip playing those two games as I specified. I do not know further details about the trip. For example, I might be visiting Las Vegas for a 3day trip to play 25 hours. I have no idea what I will find, how many hours I will play a game with a particular set of rules. For instance, I might play a DD game with no DAS on the strip, a DAS DD game off strip, a 6 deck game with one spot or two, heads up or full table.

    The idea that an experienced pro cannot recommend a trip roll without knowing a lot of details is ridiculous. A session rolll might need such details, a trip roll is unpredictable. Now, after my own experiences, I have my trip roll down so I am unlikely to go broke during trip. A newbie needs general recommendations until he gets his own experiences telling him what is right for him.

  4. #56


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    YOur trip roll has to be large enough for the games you expect to encounter and assume worst case scenario. You know what types of games you might encounter from previous trips or CBJN. For example, in Vegas expect to see 8D H17 games with 2 decks cut off at worst (you won't play games worse than that). OTOH, you expect NOT to see SD S17 3:2 dealt until the cards run out So what I would do is run a sim in advance for that worst case scenario game, knowing my top bet and roughly how many hours/day I usually play. You have to make SOME assumptions, but still go with the math the best you can.

    You've been to Vegas 20+ times, based on your trip posts. Isn't it a little late to ask this question? Also, in your case, you have to decide if you are going to "preserve the win" or put the hours in.

  5. #57


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    YOur trip roll has to be large enough for the games you expect to encounter and assume worst case scenario. You know what types of games you might encounter from previous trips or CBJN. For example, in Vegas expect to see 8D H17 games with 2 decks cut off at worst (you won't play games worse than that). OTOH, you expect NOT to see SD S17 3:2 dealt until the cards run out So what I would do is run a sim in advance for that worst case scenario game, knowing my top bet and roughly how many hours/day I usually play. You have to make SOME assumptions, but still go with the math the best you can.

    You've been to Vegas 20+ times, based on your trip posts. Isn't it a little late to ask this question? Also, in your case, you have to decide if you are going to "preserve the win" or put the hours in.
    I think Wave is saying that "preserving your win" doesn't affect your overall long-term ROR. I would agree.

    But if you are are on a trip, most people try to play as many hours as possible...whether they are ahead or behind. I mean isn't that why you took the trip? Try to maximize your EV by playing as much as possible.
    But others like Zee go into preserve the win mode whenever they get ahead because it makes them happier to go home with a winning trip.
    To each their own I guess. But when I go through the trouble and expenses of taking a trip...then I play as much as I can in order to maximize the trip and EV. I separate my BJ trips from my real vacations.
    Sometimes variance smiles on you right at the end of the trip, and you win like crazy.
    When you "preserve the win" you are just throwing away EV. But some people don't mind or care.

    Ok actually I do think "preserving your win" on trips does increase your overall long-term ROR. You are taking expensive trips but playing fewer hours than you should.
    Last edited by Counting_Is_Fun; 01-14-2020 at 06:47 PM.

  6. #58


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Counting_Is_Fun View Post
    Ok actually I do think "preserving your win" on trips does increase your overall long-term ROR. You are taking expensive trips but playing fewer hours than you should.
    I agree. You have fixed expenses on a trip. Maximizing your EV maximizes income, long term. What happens on an individual trip is noise.

  7. #59


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    YOur trip roll has to be large enough for the games you expect to encounter and assume worst case scenario. You know what types of games you might encounter from previous trips or CBJN. For example, in Vegas expect to see 8D H17 games with 2 decks cut off at worst (you won't play games worse than that). OTOH, you expect NOT to see SD S17 3:2 dealt until the cards run out So what I would do is run a sim in advance for that worst case scenario game, knowing my top bet and roughly how many hours/day I usually play. You have to make SOME assumptions, but still go with the math the best you can.

    You've been to Vegas 20+ times, based on your trip posts. Isn't it a little late to ask this question? Also, in your case, you have to decide if you are going to "preserve the win" or put the hours in.
    21forme, I did not ask the question, someone else did and this guy, the Wave, got on him about asking how much a trip roll should be without disclosing details. As for me, I have found my comfort levels and take the money I need to play on my trips.

  8. #60


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Counting_Is_Fun View Post
    I think Wave is saying that "preserving your win" doesn't affect your overall long-term ROR. I would agree.

    But if you are are on a trip, most people try to play as many hours as possible...whether they are ahead or behind. I mean isn't that why you took the trip? Try to maximize your EV by playing as much as possible.
    But others like Zee go into preserve the win mode whenever they get ahead because it makes them happier to go home with a winning trip.
    To each their own I guess. But when I go through the trouble and expenses of taking a trip...then I play as much as I can in order to maximize the trip and EV. I separate my BJ trips from my real vacations.
    Sometimes variance smiles on you right at the end of the trip, and you win like crazy.
    When you "preserve the win" you are just throwing away EV. But some people don't mind or care.

    Ok actually I do think "preserving your win" on trips does increase your overall long-term ROR. You are taking expensive trips but playing fewer hours than you should.
    No, most recreational, part time AP’s goals are different. My trips are to take a trip, have fun, win sufficient win to cover expenses and everything over it is a bonus. I am retired so it’s simply a get away from the normal boring life in a mid western city at no cost. What I don’t want is to have the feelings of frustration that can occur after a losing trip so once I ensure that I have covered my expenses and a small win, I will risk any additional wins to go for bigger wins, quit if unsuccessful but still return return home having covered my expenses.

    I do understand that others have different goals from having to pay bills and mortgage to wanting to become a millionaire.Mine are smaller.

  9. #61


    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    No, most recreational, part time AP’s goals are different. My trips are to take a trip, have fun, win sufficient win to cover expenses and everything over it is a bonus. I am retired so it’s simply a get away from the normal boring life in a mid western city at no cost. What I don’t want is to have the feelings of frustration that can occur after a losing trip so once I ensure that I have covered my expenses and a small win, I will risk any additional wins to go for bigger wins, quit if unsuccessful but still return return home having covered my expenses.

    I do understand that others have different goals from having to pay bills and mortgage to wanting to become a millionaire.Mine are smaller.
    We get it Zee when speaking for yourself...

    "No, most recreational, part time AP’s goals are different."...Now you are divining what other non-full time players goals are, which I have no idea if you are right or wrong. I just know I've been a part-time player for over 15 years and my goal is always to maximize EV. I mean that's the whole point. You don't have to be a full time pro to play a "professional" game.

  10. #62


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeNation View Post
    We get it Zee when speaking for yourself...

    "No, most recreational, part time AP’s goals are different."...Now you are divining what other non-full time players goals are, which I have no idea if you are right or wrong. I just know I've been a part-time player for over 15 years and my goal is always to maximize EV. I mean that's the whole point. You don't have to be a full time pro to play a "professional" game.
    Its why I use “recreational” and “part time”. The recreational part involves little work, limited EV goals and enjoyment.

  11. #63


    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Its why I use “recreational” and “part time”. The recreational part involves little work, limited EV goals and enjoyment.
    Well that's exactly your generalization that I'm disputing...In your posts you also say part-time recreational AP...

    Recreation and fun involves little work, limited EV goals....BUT AP involves maximizing EV regardless of designation of part-time or full time pro...

    If someone is putting in "little work" and disregarding "EV goals", while of course is up to every individual, and are free to play as they see fit, etc...It is decisively not AP. The time put in or being designated as "pro" is not exclusive to being an AP. But putting in "the work" and paying attention to "EV goals" IS absolutely essential to AP.

    Playing 150 hours a month doesn't make you a "pro" and playing 10 hours a month doesn't exclude someone from being a serious AP. What DOES exclude someone from being an AP is...putting in "little work" and having "limited EV goals".

    Play how you like, of course...

  12. #64


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeNation View Post
    Well that's exactly your generalization that I'm disputing...In your posts you also say part-time recreational AP...

    Recreation and fun involves little work, limited EV goals....BUT AP involves maximizing EV regardless of designation of part-time or full time pro...

    If someone is putting in "little work" and disregarding "EV goals", while of course is up to every individual, and are free to play as they see fit, etc...It is decisively not AP. The time put in or being designated as "pro" is not exclusive to being an AP. But putting in "the work" and paying attention to "EV goals" IS absolutely essential to AP.

    Playing 150 hours a month doesn't make you a "pro" and playing 10 hours a month doesn't exclude someone from being a serious AP. What DOES exclude someone from being an AP is...putting in "little work" and having "limited EV goals".

    Play how you like, of course...
    You are entitled to your definitions, mine differ.

    To me, a full time AP is someone who makes it a career, pays all his bills from the money he earns from casinos. A part time AP is someone who supplements his income, the majority of which comes from whatever his career or other sources are. A recreational part time AP is someone who is using some AP moves (card counting) to enhance his day to day life, have fun without a financial cost. AP stands for advantage play. Card counting is considered advantage play. My OSN description is, along with my picture and that of my car, as “advantage player, last seen in Missouri”.

  13. #65


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    A recreational part time AP is someone who is using some AP moves (card counting) to enhance his day to day life, have fun without a financial cost.
    What you call a part-time AP, I call a recreational AP. The part I quoted I call a gambler who is making a half-assed attempt trying to limit his losses from gambling.

    P.S. OSN has a lot of misinformation in it. Don't wear your entry as a merit badge.

Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Basic Strategy question regarding "soft" and "hard" hands
    By Letangs in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 08-22-2018, 07:02 AM
  2. The "Sting" vs "Prevailing Wisdom": Limit on Number of Double Downs?
    By SteinMeister in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 08-14-2018, 03:29 PM
  3. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-12-2018, 02:41 PM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-15-2015, 11:37 AM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-29-2015, 08:44 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.