Well, It Happened

[AnabelleT]

I was at the local casino last night practicing for the fun summer trip with my friends and perfecting my count live (we would like the trip paid with BlackJack winnings). My friend and I were there until pretty late, she was perfecting basic strategy and an easy count, and I was ON FIRE! So after playing for a while I decided to really up my bets when the count was good to see how much I could make (I don't usually raise by much), but I think I went too far and was too obvious.

The pit boss who was there has always been nice to me with comps and comments, a little flirtatious sometimes. Well, he came up and whispered in my ear that he needed to talk to me "for a sec" and he looked serious. I got up from the table and he told me to stop what I was doing immediately, to go back to playing the way I played before or he was going to be forced to back me off and I would run the risk of never being able to play BlackJack there again, to consider this a very friendly warning.

I got so visibly nervous I colored up and stopped playing. I know counting is not just about counting but also about hiding the fact that you're counting. Every time I think I'm doing great and really improving, I find something else that pulls me back into the reality that I'm just not good enough right now and maybe not at all cut out for serious BlackJack.

I love BlackJack but it's times like this that I really appreciate Baccarat, Pai Gow Poker, 3 Card Poker, or even a real fun, mindless slot machine.

[winnawinna]

I know how you feel because the first time I was backed off I felt like you do. But...I took some time off and came back stronger than ever. There are times I feel like I should of never started counting because I miss the life of great comps, a personal host and free money to my room etc. Since I was flyered my card is forever ruined but when I look back it I would rather be making money than losing money in my free room. My advice to you is just don't get too personal with the employees. You don't want to be a familiar face just in case you do get backed off. You want to be able to go back without being noticed

[mofungoo]

Give it a month or so and when you go back to that casino, avoid that pitboss and that shift. He probably didn't warn any other shifts, so you should be OK. If not, they will let you know rather quickly.

[paymypush]

I was at the local casino last night practicing for the fun summer trip with my friends and perfecting my count live (we would like the trip paid with BlackJack winnings). My friend and I were there until pretty late, she was perfecting basic strategy and an easy count, and I was ON FIRE! So after playing for a while I decided to really up my bets when the count was good to see how much I could make (I don't usually raise by much), but I think I went too far and was too obvious.

The pit boss who was there has always been nice to me with comps and comments, a little flirtatious sometimes. Well, he came up and whispered in my ear that he needed to talk to me "for a sec" and he looked serious. I got up from the table and he told me to stop what I was doing immediately, to go back to playing the way I played before or he was going to be forced to back me off and I would run the risk of never being able to play BlackJack there again, to consider this a very friendly warning.

I got so visibly nervous I colored up and stopped playing. I know counting is not just about counting but also about hiding the fact that you're counting. Every time I think I'm doing great and really improving, I find something else that pulls me back into the reality that I'm just not good enough right now and maybe not at all cut out for serious BlackJack.

I love BlackJack but it's times like this that I really appreciate Baccarat, Pai Gow Poker, 3 Card Poker, or even a real fun, mindless slot machine.

What was your betting spread? Index play?

[Freightman]

"The pit boss who was there has always been nice to me with comps and comments, a little flirtatious sometimes. Well, he came up and whispered in my ear that he needed to talk to me "for a sec" and he looked serious. I got up from the table and he told me to stop what I was doing immediately, to go back to playing the way I played before or he was going to be forced to back me off and I would run the risk of never being able to play BlackJack there again, to consider this a very friendly warning."

Think your lucky he likes you. Methinks he was told to back you off. You got a break. That being said, test the waters on another shift - without going overboard. Quite likely you were on the agenda of the Monday morning meeting - to be watched. Maybe I'm wrong - doesn't sound like they are overly sweaty - just taking their time to evaluate wheather you're a threat or not.

[SiMi]

Hi, AT!

Thanks for posting that! It sounds to me as if you're playing at a local joint and need longevity more than edge. This just keeps coming up...

Frankly, I'm amazed at how gentle the PB was. You must be VERY well liked there. FWIW, if you were even playing slightly +EV before, I would just go back to whatever you were doing before and thank the guy for his discretion and professional courtesy by buying him a nice bottle of Whiskey or something like that. Don't avoid him. He appears to be a friend. He's just doing his job in the best way I can imagine.

The way you approach a local joint has to be different than a "hit and run," "scorched Earth," "take no prisoners," etc. style. That's why I mentioned the "Part Time Professional Player" idea in another post that I suspect is VERY common out there across the land. It's a different approach to the game.

Since you love BJ, drop your play down to a small +EV and keep your skills sharp and think of ways to be an asset to the local joint so they welcome you for a LONG LONG time.

Best of luck!
SiMi

[Three]

Think your lucky he likes you. Methinks he was told to back you off. You got a break. That being said, test the waters on another shift - without going overboard. Quite likely you were on the agenda of the Monday morning meeting - to be watched. Maybe I'm wrong - doesn't sound like they are overly sweaty - just taking their time to evaluate wheather you're a threat or not.

I was thinking along these lines but more like your play made him uncomfortable in that he couldn't look the other way and not catch a raft of stinky stuff. I think most know what I am doing but the trick is to do it in a way that they are comfortable about looking the other way. If they feel you are threatening their job any latitude you may be getting will be thrown in that smelly place rather than the suit getting that stink all over him. Too many think the game is fooling the suits and they don't realize how easy it is to peg a counter. The key is to not play too long, win too much in a session, win too much in any period of time and not to visit too frequently. The relative "too" is the tricky part. It varies by what casino and what shift you are playing. With some casinos as an exception usually you force the casino to back you off because you misread that relative "too" or didn't care about it as a part of your playing strategy (slash and burn).

Anyway the guy didn't want to back you off. He did you a big favor by giving you a heads up no matter where the heat was originating from. We would all be interested in what you were betting but especially what bet spread brought the heat. You were probably already pegged as a counter but then you got pegged as a threat. It sounds like you are getting the counting down you just need to learn all the other stuff. We are talking a lot of stuff. BR and risk management, heat and act and all kinds of subtleties to winning and longevity. Some AP's are traveling AP's. They were out their welcome quickly and try to get the money just as quickly. Their longevity is the fact that there are so many casinos in the country/world. More commonly you have AP's that are more stationary as they have a job and life away from the casino. Te goals and styles of these two approaches are polar opposites. The one that fits you depends on who you are, what you want from being an AP and ow long you want to be doing this coupled wit your ability to travel.

[AnabelleT]

Thank you, guys.

I go to this casino regularly so they already know me there. I used to only play slots while my ex boyfriend played poker, but I've been playing table games there for almost three years now, so they recognize me already.

My highest bet that night was $125 (at a $15 minimum table) so I would jump sometimes from $15 or $20 to $125 and everything in between, but this is small money to them and I think maybe the reason why I just got a warning. In the past I only raised my bets to a max of about $50 when counting so maybe it didn't really look like I was trying to be some kind of "advantage" player

The pit boss told me specifically to go back to playing the way I played before when he warned me, so I guess raising up to $50 even though they know I might be counting is ok with them. I don't know, but when I go back I'll be playing the way I usually play to keep them from banning me and still get my practice counting live which has been a problem for me. I'd hate to be banned from playing there. I might go to a casino that's a little further away and play there for a bit before going back to my regular place, but I don't know. Right now I'm just a bit down about his warning and my BlackJack abilities

Thank you for all your comments.

[paymypush]

You might want to get a win/loss statement to see what they have on you for lifetime wins. You should be able to get it online for each year.

[winnawinna]

I think the PB noticed what you were doing and didn't notify surveillance since he likes you. Correct me if I'm wrong but I was told that if surveillance notices you they will not notify the floor since those two are two separate depts

[marriedputter]

The pit boss told me specifically to go back to playing the way I played before when he warned me, so I guess raising up to $50 even though they know I might be counting is ok with them.

I think what he meant is that he wants you not to count anymore. The way you were playing "before" probably refers to the 3 years that you put in not counting.

This is a game of patience, patience, and more patience. This patience takes many forms:

1. Learning to count so well that it is second nature. You can do it while talking to people around you, even being able to talk to the pit and not get nervous, fidgety, nor distracted.
2. Learning what their ceiling is. It takes patience to find out this amount since you can't actually ask. You have to read the pit and the players for their reactions on your bets. Call it a less direct form of communication. Personally, I go no further than $90 for my max bet on one hand. This way, they don't shout "cheques play" and get the attention of the pit. Your $125 bet was WAY out of character for you based on your playing history. It's not always about whether the amount of the bet is higher or lower than average for that casino, it's about your spread (i.e. amount of your minimum bet and amount of your maximum bet). They would be perfectly comfortable with you betting $125 on every hand if you wanted to, and even a whole lot more as long as it was the same amount (or close to it)!
3. The ability to make it through the dry spells. To quote Wall Street, 1987, "Quick buck artists come and go with every bull market but the steady players make it through the bear market." Can you make it though losing spells? You can do everything correctly and the dealer just keeps getting the good cards. I insured against the dealer's ace three times in a row last night and not only did the dealer not have blackjack, I lost my max bets. Ouch.
4. You also need the patience to find the good games to exploit while staying as camouflaged as possible. Some love the "cat and mouse" game of counting. It makes you feel like James Bond or something. While I like that aspect as well, there are some nights where I would love to just be myself. But I can't, I have to act the typical dunce, both in the way I dress and the vocabulary that I use. This is not always easy to do.

Another thing, is that you in your avatar? Don't you think that this is a little revealing to inquiring minds that may want to know? Also, is Anabelle your real name? Probably not a good idea to have these things in public view while talking about counting.

All this being said, I LOVE the fact that you are a girl and you are working on counting! Most of the girls at my local casinos are either arm candy or just plain dumb. If you stick with it, I am sure a lot of people around here would be willing to assist and support you.

[SiMi]

Hi, again

The data you gave was not enough to know much but I took a stab and used CVCX to sim a 5/6 deck game with typical rules (H17, DAS, no RSA, 1 card on split Aces, etc.) and a 1:4 spread on a $15 minimum ($15 : $60) with I18 HiLo and I show you have a 0.2% advantage of about $5 per hour. N0 comes in at a whopping 440,000 rounds. (I don't know if I'm even close on what you're doing.)

If I am close to what you're doing, you have a very slight edge with your 'old' style of play and they probably knew that so they don't care at that level because you're clearly nice and you bring in friends and you have fun, etc. In other words, you're an overall asset at that level. If I am close, then it's ok for you to go there and hone your skills but you're not going to make any significant money at this kind of place. OTOH, you won't lose money over time, either, and you say you love the game so that's probably the best you're going to do at BJ at this place for now. (Things can change, though, and keep your eyes open for that...)

If you have CVCX, it's useful to play with it a bit. If you don't have it, I think you should get it because it lets you understand what's going on in your play. I know some people are not keen on the math and statistics behind the game but I think it's very helpful to have this kind of info to assess what's going on. Here, if I'm close, you might better see why they talked to you at the 'new' level but let you play at the old level. It's just one more tool in your tool belt and you can try some things on CVCX without leaving home!

Good luck!
SiMi

[Three]

Some casinos get antsy at certain play level thresholds. $100 bets are the threshold at some of the tighter stores. Betting less than that may be fine at this store or your attention may be due to your being to obvious about what you are doing. Again a smaller top bet should take care of that.